Reply to: IR35 Reforms to be Abolished!

[ShandyDrinker]

Lets be fair, there was a very genuine problem with disguised employees. We can argue all day that IR35 was the wrong tool for the job but there was a genuine problem.

To an extent, yes.

What has angered me throughout my contracting career is those people with the contract being rolled in perpetuity. I'm sure many of us that have work in financial services contracts know of contractors that often have longer tenures than many of the permies. However, to give them some credit and as an argument put to me on numerous occasions, perhaps they're genuinely indispensable to an organisation? I happen to think there's that for the majority of contract work, in my discipline of software development, is that contracts should be project based; an engagement is sought to deliver a project and that's it, then you leave and find other projects.

I've lost count of the number of times I've worked with contractors who never bothered doing due diligence, didn't give a toss about IR35 status, contract reviews and so on. I don't necessarily blame successive governments for doing what they did, our sector were easy targets. It's just a travesty that for those of us who genuinely tried to do the right thing, antipathy and laziness led us to where we are today.

Like any legislation though, should you really take a sledgehammer to crack a nut?

[JustKeepSwimming]

Optimism would be great. However, let us not forget that Blair and co brought us IR35 in the first place. Whichever main party gets into power, you can guarantee that we're going to see a further hollowing out of the middle regardless. The rich will either flee or hide their money/assets. The poor will be courted by both main parties with the those still lucky enough to be earning reasonable money being the ones picking up the tab.

In my opinion there's little to be optimistic about.

Lets be fair, there was a very genuine problem with disguised employees. We can argue all day that IR35 was the wrong tool for the job but there was a genuine problem.

[ShandyDrinker]

6 months ago I would happily vote Labour. Recently some of the stuff they have been saying it's more I'll vote for them but hold my nose. I get that they are trying to capture middle ground and not rock the boat, and maybe their manifesto will have some big changes which I think is needed.

Maybe it's just my current general bleak mood wanting a optimistic Blair 2.0 era.

Optimism would be great. However, let us not forget that Blair and co brought us IR35 in the first place. Whichever main party gets into power, you can guarantee that we're going to see a further hollowing out of the middle regardless. The rich will either flee or hide their money/assets. The poor will be courted by both main parties with the those still lucky enough to be earning reasonable money being the ones picking up the tab.

In my opinion there's little to be optimistic about.

[eek]

Would it have resulted in over 1 million people moving onto self employment though?

Yep - the reason for the 2021 changes was haulage and some other sectors pushing more and more people into using PSC as a way not to maximise income for the worker but to minimise the overall cost to the end client.

The September IR35 rules resulted in a lot of agencies looking at how to return to that world without hitting Chapter 9 MSC issues...

[JustKeepSwimming]

Hard to disagree with this. I can't see myself voting Conservative, but then I can't see myself voting Labour either.

There are only two scenarios which would lead me to vote either party:

1. The Conservatives repeal the off-payroll rules before the next election.
2. Labour commits to introducing proportional representation.

On point 1, it's very unlikely.
On point 2, it's not that I want Labour as I don't, but what I would like to see is other parties being able to genuinely challenge the status quo. Perhaps more importantly, I do like to believe in some kind of fairness and at least all votes are worth something under PR, even if I may dislike many of the parties which would get those votes.

6 months ago I would happily vote Labour. Recently some of the stuff they have been saying it's more I'll vote for them but hold my nose. I get that they are trying to capture middle ground and not rock the boat, and maybe their manifesto will have some big changes which I think is needed.

Maybe it's just my current general bleak mood wanting a optimistic Blair 2.0 era.

[ShandyDrinker]

It doesn't work surely? After 13 years of whatever it will be they suddenly come out with maybe moderately beneficial manifesto promise and we are just meant to forget the 13 years of them consistently ******* everyone over?

I genuinely can't think of anything they could do that would make me vote for them for the foreseeable future, least until there is a complete fresh front bench, and I'm not one of these '**** all tories' type. Ok maybe if they gave me and only me a few million.

Hard to disagree with this. I can't see myself voting Conservative, but then I can't see myself voting Labour either.

There are only two scenarios which would lead me to vote either party:

1. The Conservatives repeal the off-payroll rules before the next election.
2. Labour commits to introducing proportional representation.

On point 1, it's very unlikely.
On point 2, it's not that I want Labour as I don't, but what I would like to see is other parties being able to genuinely challenge the status quo. Perhaps more importantly, I do like to believe in some kind of fairness and at least all votes are worth something under PR, even if I may dislike many of the parties which would get those votes.

[ShandyDrinker]

Go back to October and see who quickly the attempts to remove IR35 was destroyed when Truss was removed.

It’s worth saying I saw an estimate that Truss’s removal of IR35 would have resulted in over 1 million people moving onto self employment

And Much of that would have been completely dubious self employment - so I wasn’t 100% upset when the idea was binned.

reality is it ain’t going to happen - Truss destroyed any chance it will occur

Would it have resulted in over 1 million people moving onto self employment though?

Truss/Kwarteng were right about repealing the off-payroll rules. What has been done with the off-payroll rules hasn't resulted in the ever touted fairness in the system magically appearing. It has resulted purely in one perceived injustice of contractors having a perceived advantage with contractors now being taxed as employees and not receiving proper (under duck typing) employment rights as most people would understand them.

I happen to think that Jolyon Maugham's post Tax loss, business and personal service companies – Waiting for Godot (waitingfortax.com) is closest to how they knew contractors could have the tables turned on them. This has only ever been about playing the numbers and putting the odds in favour of HMRC/HMT. It really is as simple as that.

[JustKeepSwimming]

Even if they did do something I still wouldn’t vote for them, they should have done it years ago.

Cynical feckers.

It doesn't work surely? After 13 years of whatever it will be they suddenly come out with maybe moderately beneficial manifesto promise and we are just meant to forget the 13 years of them consistently ******* everyone over?

I genuinely can't think of anything they could do that would make me vote for them for the foreseeable future, least until there is a complete fresh front bench, and I'm not one of these '**** all tories' type. Ok maybe if they gave me and only me a few million.

[eek]

Go back to October and see who quickly the attempts to remove IR35 was destroyed when Truss was removed.

It’s worth saying I saw an estimate that Truss’s removal of IR35 would have resulted in over 1 million people moving onto self employment

And Much of that would have been completely dubious self employment - so I wasn’t 100% upset when the idea was binned.

reality is it ain’t going to happen - Truss destroyed any chance it will occur

[cojak]

Even if they did do something I still wouldn’t vote for them, they should have done it years ago.

Cynical feckers.

[ladymuck]

Can't be bothered to create a new thread, but just thought I'd leave this here, with a chuckle.

https://conservativehome.com/2023/07...al-expediency/

The comments make for fun reading

[ShandyDrinker]

Can't be bothered to create a new thread, but just thought I'd leave this here, with a chuckle.

https://conservativehome.com/2023/07...al-expediency/

Unfortunately that's probably my fault. As one of his constituents who has seen him goodness knows how many times since the days of the ill fated business entity tests, the tightening up of expenses rules and both the public and private sector off-payroll rules, I know he's got fed up with seeing me about all things IR35 related.

Somewhat cynically, when he was in a position to do something about it and challenging the status quo when he was in the cabinet, I was always disappointed when he didn't have more influence.

I'll never forget what he said in the run up to the 2019 election though, that if the Conservatives won a big majority it was likely to be bad for seeing any movement on IR35 - he certainly wasn't wrong.

While I'm pleased he's finally said something about it publicly and realises how damaging it is, the reality is that it's too little too late for the vast majority.

[jamesbrown]

Can't be bothered to create a new thread, but just thought I'd leave this here, with a chuckle.

https://conservativehome.com/2023/07...al-expediency/

[GregRickshaw]

Gentlemen/Ladies: IR 35 reforms just confirmed to still be scrapped as part of Jeremy Hunt's new budget.

Man that is a confusing statement.

[cojak]

Gentlemen/Ladies: IR 35 reforms just confirmed to still be scrapped as part of Jeremy Hunt's new budget.

Quelle surprise…