Reply to: To anyone who's carrying outside post 6th April

[Paralytic]

Just a sanity check. If I have been offered a contract with a new client starting post-6th April 2020 which the client says is outside IR35, is there anything I should be concerned about?

From what I have been reading, there should be no concern. If there was any subsequent IR35 fallout, it would land on the client not on me. Is this correct?

Just make sure it is the client that says it is outside, not that the agent has said that the client said it is outside. They are not necessarily the same thing... And, as others have said, ask for the SDS/proof of determination.

[Superfly]

What are those out of curiosity?

I'd say that going brolly after already being there on a contract via Ltd is probably more risky or at least would draw more attention that carrying on outside.

dsc, sorry mate can't say. The client has paid a lot of money for these IR35 consultancy services and have asked me not to discuss details, even anonymously.

To be honest, I am just looking to protect myself, that is it.

I have never worked for this client before, neither as Ltd contractor, brolly or permie. This would be the first time I would be doing any work for them.

[dsc]

I have also been pre-briefed about working practices which I may have not been familiar in the past but which are crucial in reinforcing my 'outside' status and I need to follow rigidly.

What are those out of curiosity?

I'd say that going brolly after already being there on a contract via Ltd is probably more risky or at least would draw more attention that carrying on outside.

[jamesbrown]

No matter how you look at it, the risk associated with an outside contract post-April is substantially lower than the risk pre-April because the entire supply chain has a vested interest in defending your status and YourCo is never liable, absent fraud (very high bar indeed).

[Superfly]

Thanks James, NLUK.

I have been told that the client has been very pro-active and has hired QDOS to support them with the April 2020 changes. They are using their own CEST tool though and not HMRC's. I have also been pre-briefed about working practices which I may have not been familiar in the past but which are crucial in reinforcing my 'outside' status and I need to follow rigidly.

There is also the old nutshell of HMRC coming along and painting the double yellow lines around your parked car, ie. retrospective application of legislation changes, which concerns me. I am seriously considering using a full PAYE brolly even though the client has found me outside, such is my risk aversion these days. That will probably open up its own set of can-of worms, and I'll probably not be too popular with the other contractors as it may put their outside status in jeopardy. Feels like I'm playing chess sometimes, I need to use what remains of my grey cells for my day job rather than worry about all this.

[LondonManc]

Just a sanity check. If I have been offered a contract with a new client starting post-6th April 2020 which the client says is outside IR35, is there anything I should be concerned about?

From what I have been reading, there should be no concern. If there was any subsequent IR35 fallout, it would land on the client not on me. Is this correct?

No concerns but don't alter your due dilligence process of getting the contract and working practices reviewed.

[northernladuk]

Just a sanity check. If I have been offered a contract with a new client starting post-6th April 2020 which the client says is outside IR35, is there anything I should be concerned about?

From what I have been reading, there should be no concern. If there was any subsequent IR35 fallout, it would land on the client not on me. Is this correct?

It is but its not an excuse to go back to permietracting and failing to understand anything about Ir35 and its impact.

I'd we do it will just do full circle to when IR35 was implemented when no one took any notice and grew to this.

Knowledge and understanding of IR35 is key to not destroy your own status. You'd have to be thick as mince not to think once the low hanging fruit has been picked they'll go back to picking on Outside determined gigs to ensure its being done properly. I foresee a bunch of permietractors continuing to show complete ignorance of everything coming back on the forum with questions and the whole cycle starts again.

Yes it's the clients responsibility but I am sure things will change and that will be challenged at some point. Just a guess but some contractor puts themselves inside through lack of knowledge, client is on the hook but argues it was out of their hands and its contractors fault. One case even hits court, win or lose, its going to put doubt back in to everyone's minds.

[jamesbrown]

Just a sanity check. If I have been offered a contract with a new client starting post-6th April 2020 which the client says is outside IR35, is there anything I should be concerned about?

From what I have been reading, there should be no concern. If there was any subsequent IR35 fallout, it would land on the client not on me. Is this correct?

No concerns, providing you have the actual SDS before you start. Yes, the liability falls on the supply chain above YourCo.

[Superfly]

Just a sanity check. If I have been offered a contract with a new client starting post-6th April 2020 which the client says is outside IR35, is there anything I should be concerned about?

From what I have been reading, there should be no concern. If there was any subsequent IR35 fallout, it would land on the client not on me. Is this correct?

[LondonManc]

Come on, there's only three questions in the original post...[I knew it was dragging on a bit]

I was simply curious whether it's normal to see new outside contracts offered to people staying on, or whether the SDSs are done mostly on existing contracts. There's a big difference imho in terms of risk, the latter offering less risk as it's basically a pat on the back to say you are outside and are carrying on outside. With a new contract issued, there's less of a link between previous contract(s) / new contract, so I guess the risk is unknown and it can go both ways. I still think it would be a problem if your contract end was past 06/04 (not the case with me), but you were asked to leave end of March, then come back in April, but on a new contract.

Anyways, all this talk of outside contracts is just a plan, finding out more beginning of March, so in the end the client might just say "tough luck, it came out inside".

I've been reading these boards for the last 3 months, I blame you lot for me being paranoid!

A little paranoia is a good thing - keeps you on your toes.

Seriously, if you hand on heart belong outside and get offered a new outside contract, great. I'd be wary of a client making a blanket outside declaration though. If they've got, say, 500 contractors at the moment, I'd expect a split of inside and outside in the "new world", reflecting the way that work is carried out and the general nature of it and how it can vary from role to role.

[eek]

Come on, there's only three questions in the original post...[I knew it was dragging on a bit]

I was simply curious whether it's normal to see new outside contracts offered to people staying on, or whether the SDSs are done mostly on existing contracts.

No the new normal is that end clients have gone for blanket bans (which says more about how they trust their staff more than anything else).

Mind you today's post about Sky tells you that most companies adopting blanket bans because they don't trust their staff not to screw up are probably correct that their staff will screw things up.

[BR14]

So your question is?

theres an echo in here

[northernladuk]

So your question is?

[dsc]

Come on, there's only three questions in the original post...[I knew it was dragging on a bit]

I was simply curious whether it's normal to see new outside contracts offered to people staying on, or whether the SDSs are done mostly on existing contracts. There's a big difference imho in terms of risk, the latter offering less risk as it's basically a pat on the back to say you are outside and are carrying on outside. With a new contract issued, there's less of a link between previous contract(s) / new contract, so I guess the risk is unknown and it can go both ways. I still think it would be a problem if your contract end was past 06/04 (not the case with me), but you were asked to leave end of March, then come back in April, but on a new contract.

Anyways, all this talk of outside contracts is just a plan, finding out more beginning of March, so in the end the client might just say "tough luck, it came out inside".

I've been reading these boards for the last 3 months, I blame you lot for me being paranoid!

[LondonManc]

You're overthinking this. If your old contract was confirmed as outside IR35 and it was your determination then hopefully you've gathered evidence to support this. If your new contract is (even further) outside IR35 and it is ClientCo's determination then you're in a very lucky position compared to many, certainly compared to other specialists who've been lumped in with the genuine disguised permies.