Reply to: APN penalties - APN Penalty Appeal Group

[GregRickshaw]

APNs can only be issued against open years ie. prior to any settlement.

Penalties arise if you don't pay APNs on time. The fact that a person subsequently settled doesn't make the penalties go away.

Gotcha I thought I had it but as the post went on I wasn't so sure. Thanks again.

[DealorNoDeal]

I however, also wondering how people like myself may be affected by this. I settled my open cases and had no APNs. I know it sounds a bit obvious but you really do never know with HMRC

APNs can only be issued against open years ie. prior to any settlement.

Penalties arise if you don't pay APNs on time. The fact that a person subsequently settled doesn't make the penalties go away.

[GregRickshaw]

Pretty sure its the fact that the penalties are separate to the actually APN, so while a person settled the loans and therefore the APN ammounts, the penalty itself remains (plus interest, and probably another penalty for not paying the penalty knowing HMRC).

Makes sense - thank you.

I however, also wondering how people like myself may be affected by this. I settled my open cases and had no APNs. I know it sounds a bit obvious but you really do never know with HMRC

[Keanu2020]

Pretty sure its the fact that the penalties are separate to the actually APN, so while a person settled the loans and therefore the APN ammounts, the penalty itself remains (plus interest, and probably another penalty for not paying the penalty knowing HMRC).

[GregRickshaw]

After many years of silence from HMRC, I have just received a bill for 3 APN penalties. The LC aspects were settled a few years back. Now wondering how many more APN penalties might come through the door and the best way forward.

I'm curious as to why you would get an APN penalty if you settled?

I thought APNs were only issued if you had not paid/rejected/not settled/ignored etc.,

[peterhock]

After many years of silence from HMRC, I have just received a bill for 3 APN penalties. The LC aspects were settled a few years back. Now wondering how many more APN penalties might come through the door and the best way forward.

[eek]

Thanks for that. The group has extended the deadline for joining so I'm still debating this. However, they're not even sure if this exact technicality even applies to me so it does seem like a long shot.

So it's a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very long shot. That should tell you all you need to know.

[Dilbert]

I have heard strong case, bullish etc for all the Loan Charge litigation.

My view is that in days past technicalities would be enough, now they look at the intention/purpose of the law. IMV this is to allow for the fact no-one is able to write good clear legislation anymore. I can't see any case based on a legal technicality getting anywhere.

Thanks for that. The group has extended the deadline for joining so I'm still debating this. However, they're not even sure if this exact technicality even applies to me so it does seem like a long shot.

[dammit chloe]

I have heard strong case, bullish etc for all the Loan Charge litigation.

My view is that in days past technicalities would be enough, now they look at the intention/purpose of the law. IMV this is to allow for the fact no-one is able to write good clear legislation anymore. I can't see any case based on a legal technicality getting anywhere.

[Dilbert]

There is no right of appeal against APNs. You can make representations but if HMRC reject these, then it's pay up or incur surcharges/penalties.



I've heard that before. I bet they're not willing to stick their neck out and give an actual % chance of success. When a barrister is really confident about a case they'll back it up with a % eg. greater than 75%.

You're correct. Not seen a %. It seems when going up against HMRC the % is always low so I'm not kidding myself that winning the case is actually likely. I guess I need to work out how much it is worth to me to kick the can down the road for a year or two.

Thanks for your thoughts. Appreciate it.

[DealorNoDeal]

The main argument was that as we had appealed against the APNs in the first place so we shouldn't have had to pay the APNs while that appeal was ongoing - otherwise it would have kind of defeated the purpose of the appeal.

There is no right of appeal against APNs. You can make representations but if HMRC reject these, then it's pay up or incur surcharges/penalties.

The grounds for appeal are based on a legal technicality that I don't fully understand but the counsel is bullish that there are strong grounds.

I've heard that before. I bet they're not willing to stick their neck out and give an actual % chance of success. When a barrister is really confident about a case they'll back it up with a % eg. greater than 75%.

[Dilbert]

Two hopes here, Bob Hope and No Hope?

You're probably right. I'm not massively hopeful of overturning the decision I'll be honest.

I can't fully remember the details of the case sorry. I'll try to dig it out. The main argument was that as we had appealed against the APNs in the first place so we shouldn't have had to pay the APNs while that appeal was ongoing - otherwise it would have kind of defeated the purpose of the appeal.

Obviously the court rejected that on a number of points which I'll try to dig out.

The grounds for appeal are based on a legal technicality that I don't fully understand but the counsel is bullish that there are strong grounds.

To be honest my main objective would be to kick the can down the road for a year or two before I have to pay as cash is a bit tight at the moment having had to settle four years worth of EBT loans recently. The original case began in January 2019 and so has bought me an extra three years of not having to deal with it - albeit obviously covid has played a part in that timeline.

I was hoping that any others involved in this would drop me a line as there hasn't been much chatter about this matter on the forums.

Thanks anyway

[DealorNoDeal]

Two hopes here, Bob Hope and No Hope?

Probably. The APN legislation is clear when penalties arise, which is why I was curious as to what possible grounds of appeal there could be.

[Fred Bloggs]

Two hopes here, Bob Hope and No Hope?

[DealorNoDeal]

I'm not familiar with the case.

1) On what grounds are the penalties being appealed?
2) What reasons did the FTT give for finding in favour of HMRC?
3) Which tax firm/solicitors are running the appeal?
4) Which barrister are they using?