Reply to: Well Done Denmark

[EternalOptimist]

true story - my brothers a vicar, and yesterday as part of his sermon he included this joke.
'Teaching the children in sunday school the difference between right and wrong, I asked them what it would be if someone put his hand in another mans pocket and took all his money'
'That would be his wife' replied little johnny.

So its been done many times and I dont see how Denmark are being particularly brave.

they are talking about religious slaughter, not religious laughter, you idiot

[d000hg]

I really fancy pork chow mein now.

[EternalOptimist]

true story - my brothers a vicar, and yesterday as part of his sermon he included this joke.
'Teaching the children in sunday school the difference between right and wrong, I asked them what it would be if someone put his hand in another mans pocket and took all his money'
'That would be his wife' replied little johnny.

So its been done many times and I dont see how Denmark are being particularly brave.

[DaveB]

Yes, in fact what you've told me confirms that; not all 'halal' meat meets the requirements of halal, just as not all non-halal or non-kosher meat meets the legal requirements we have. That is the problem; meat being produced by those who don't keep to the laws that have been made to ensure humane raising and slaughtering.

WHS.

Ultimately, if you eat meat and care about animal welfare, you should be making the effort to find out where it comes from, how it was produced and what happened to it in between. Most people don't care, or can't afford to care. There is a reason supermarket meat is relatively cheap.

Personally I am lucky to be in the position where I can afford to buy meat from a local butcher, who knows where his meat comes from (literally "That field over there" on one occasion when I asked) and can tell me exactly what happened to it between field, slaughter and sale. Yes it's more expensive, so I buy less of it. I don't care whether it's Halal or not, what I care about is the quality and provenance.

Getting your knickers in twist about Halal or Kosher or anything else and then buying cheap intensively raised, factory procecessed supermarket chicken is missing the point. Properly raised, slaughtered and handled Halal meat is just as good if not better than any other commercially produced meat that has been properly raised, slaughtered and handled, and really no different to what you buy in the supermarket anyway. Barring the religious recitation at the point of slaughter the process is identicle.

You are just as likely to buy meat that has been produced under poor conditions from a supermarket or butcher that is not Halal as you are from one that is.

But as I said, the Daily Mail would love you to think otherwise.

[Mich the Tester]

In both cases the welfare of the animal is regarded as a vital part of the process and failure to provides for this would make the meat impure. You could make the argument that a Kosher or Halal slaughter man is more likely to care about this as a fundamental religious belief than another without that belief. This does of course ignore human nature and the lack of scruples in some people where money is concerned, but that applies equally in a non-religous environment.

WHS

[Mich the Tester]

Still on the fence?

Yes, in fact what you've told me confirms that; not all 'halal' meat meets the requirements of halal, just as not all non-halal or non-kosher meat meets the legal requirements we have. That is the problem; meat being produced by those who don't keep to the laws that have been made to ensure humane raising and slaughtering.

[oscarose]

fyi

A Buddhist take on factory farming

[wurzel]

God knows who your 'friend' is but ask him about this...

Ban Live Export - official site



Ermmm yeah ok.

Still on the fence?

Yeah, a lot of the lamb consumed in the Middle East comes from live exports & the conditions in which they are transported are pretty awful if you believe any number of exposés that have been done on it over the years.

[DaveB]

I'm sure a site called ban live exports.com is very unbiased. Why are you taking as gospel words on their website?

[d000hg]

I'm sure a site called ban live exports.com is very unbiased. Why are you taking as gospel words on their website?

[Flashman]

According to a muslim friend, for meat to be properly 'halal', it must have been raised in a humane way and any meat from modern 'factory farming' cannot be called halal. The islamic laws on this go much further than the slaughter and actually cover the whole animal's life, because animals are seen as 'nations' in the Qu'ran, which must be treated with respect just like human 'nations'.

So you see I struggle with answering the question. If meat was truly halal then I'd rather eat it than your bog standard supermarket meat, because the animal's life was probably rather better. But, 'humanely slaughtered' meat from an animal that's lived a tulip life couped up in a confined space; is that really any better? Plus; an animal that is slaughtered by a halal or kosher method involves confronting humans with what they're doing; that's at least the symbolism of having an imam or a priest present, and factory meat might be slaughtered by an automated process and some bloke pressing buttons who never actually sees what he's doing.

Of course, I'd prefer that all meat is raised AND slaughtered as humanely as possible, but while we can buy factory farmed, hormone filled meat from unhealthy animals, I find it rather hypocricital to legislating against halal and kosher slaughter. Let's sort the whole process out instead of purely focussing on a ritual at the end of an animal's life.

God knows who your 'friend' is but ask him about this...

Ban Live Export - official site

The islamic laws on this go much further than the slaughter and actually cover the whole animal's life, because animals are seen as 'nations' in the Qu'ran, which must be treated with respect just like human 'nations'

Ermmm yeah ok.

Still on the fence?

[d000hg]

Well yes, it's one of those issues where the more I get to know about it the less certain I am.

The more you know, the more you think "bugger this, I fancy a steak and some beer"

[NotAllThere]

I worked in one place where a Rabbi was on the bill of materials. One had to be brought in to bless the products intended for use during Passover.

[DaveB]

According to a muslim friend, for meat to be properly 'halal', it must have been raised in a humane way and any meat from modern 'factory farming' cannot be called halal. The islamic laws on this go much further than the slaughter and actually cover the whole animal's life, because animals are seen as 'nations' in the Qu'ran, which must be treated with respect just like human 'nations'.

So you see I struggle with answering the question. If meat was truly halal then I'd rather eat it than your bog standard supermarket meat, because the animal's life was probably rather better. But, 'humanely slaughtered' meat from an animal that's lived a tulip life couped up in a confined space; is that really any better? Plus; an animal that is slaughtered by a halal or kosher method involves confronting humans with what they're doing; that's at least the symbolism of having an imam or a priest present, and factory meat might be slaughtered by an automated process and some bloke pressing buttons who never actually sees what he's doing.

Of course, I'd prefer that all meat is raised AND slaughtered as humanely as possible, but while we can buy factory farmed, hormone filled meat from unhealthy animals, I find it rather hypocricital to legislating against halal and kosher slaughter. Let's sort the whole process out instead of purely focussing on a ritual at the end of an animal's life.

WMTTS +1

Strictly speaking Halal requires that the animal be conscious but the Halal food authority (who certify meat going into fast food chains, processed foods and supermarkets etc in the UK, rather than local butchers) allow the animals to be stunned first. This makes the process identical to the non-Halal process used in european slaughter houses, other than the spiritual component of the Halal process - A recitation dedicating the animal to God.

According to the RSPCA 90% of animals slaughtered for Halal meat in the Uk in 2004 were stunned before being killed so as far as supermarket meat goes, there's really no difference. Although I'm sure the Daily Mail would love you to think otherwise.

Definition of Halal

Specifically on the use of stunning prior to slaughter.

FAQs - Question 3.

The major difference between Halal and Kosher is that the Kosher requirements do not permit stunning of the animal before slaughter. Otherwise the process is identical and no different to the "normal" european methods.

In both cases the welfare of the animal is regarded as a vital part of the process and failure to provides for this would make the meat impure. You could make the argument that a Kosher or Halal slaughter man is more likely to care about this as a fundamental religious belief than another without that belief. This does of course ignore human nature and the lack of scruples in some people where money is concerned, but that applies equally in a non-religous environment.

[doodab]

Well yes, it's one of those issues where the more I get to know about it the less certain I am.

Usually a sign of an intelligent mind.