On Radio 4 this week is "The Story of the King James Bible" which may be of interest.
BBC - BBC Radio 4 Programmes - King James Bible, The Story of the King James Bible, The Commission
BBC - BBC Radio 4 Programmes - King James Bible, The Story of the King James Bible, The Translation
BBC - BBC Radio 4 Programmes - King James Bible, The Story of the King James Bible, The Legacy
State-commissioned manipulation of the masses, or a sincere scholarly attempt at a true representation of God's word?
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Reply to: Evangelical Christians?
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Previously on "Evangelical Christians?"
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Originally posted by Gibbon View PostI think the authors of The Cambridge Companion to the Age of Constantine may well differ from your opinion. The NT was a political instrument to try and combine the very differing early Christianities under one faith who then recognise the Emperor as Gods leader on Earth.
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Originally posted by NotAllThere View PostIf that's true - which is kind of hard to demonstrate as you'd have to show what it was manipulated from - then it would only apply to the New Testament. Unless by manipulated you mean "put together by", in which case it's kind of self-evident.
All the other stuff about suppressed gospels etc. is about as as scholarly as Dan Brown, and should be treated with the seriousness that you'd reserve for any other kind of conspiracy theory.
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Religion is a personal choice that can be taken or left. I will always respect a person for taking a conscious decision of faith even if they do scream down a megaphone.
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All the other stuff about suppressed gospels etc. is about as as scholarly as Dan Brown
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Originally posted by portseven View PostSo where then do the apocrypha fit in then? Who decided that they should be in or out of the main cannon and on who's authority did they make that decision? I am thinking here about books like Tobit, 1 and 2 Esdras, Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary, etc.
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Originally posted by NotAllThere View PostIf that's true - which is kind of hard to demonstrate as you'd have to show what it was manipulated from - then it would only apply to the New Testament
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If that's true - which is kind of hard to demonstrate as you'd have to show what it was manipulated from - then it would only apply to the New Testament. Unless by manipulated you mean "put together by", in which case it's kind of self-evident.
All the other stuff about suppressed gospels etc. is about as as scholarly as Dan Brown, and should be treated with the seriousness that you'd reserve for any other kind of conspiracy theory.
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There is no doubt that the bible was manipulated by the early Church. It is not something that should be held as, well 'gospel'.
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Originally posted by d000hg View PostYes. But if you believe in a god driving these things, then the argument is he was driving those decisions. Faith is required, although I suppose the excluded books can be examined in the light of history and literary analysis and consistency with other books too. No. Other historical texts suffer the same issues but there are scientific techniques to try and determine if what you have in front of you is an accurate representation of the original, and the gospels for example are very strong in this regard. It doesn't mean of course that the original is accurate, but the easy argument "it's been warped over time" is no more valid than claiming many well-trusted ancient manuscripts are flaky.
I can't find a link, right now, but I've seen one before with a few examples.
Of course, whether the Bible is inspired by god or made up by men is an entirely different question. But as a representative of an ancient body of literature, it's pretty reliable.
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Originally posted by d000hg View PostI don't remember saying that. I'm not religious, following a set of rules is dead religion rather than having a relationship... and the 'book' tells Christians about the one they have a relationship with.
It's hard to see how you can follow someone without basing it on what they said and did. Saying you're following Jesus by trying to be a decent bloke is like saying you're following Ronaldo by wearing a Real Madrid shirt while stuffing your face with chips and never leaving the sofa.
Is this the point the thread goes downhill, where your capacity for rational discussion runs dry and you sink to insults and putting words in others' mouths?
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Originally posted by minestrone View PostYes, I see what you have done there.
I do not understand what you get from religion, to me it is a way of life, to you it is a book.
It's hard to see how you can follow someone without basing it on what they said and did. Saying you're following Jesus by trying to be a decent bloke is like saying you're following Ronaldo by wearing a Real Madrid shirt while stuffing your face with chips and never leaving the sofa.
Is this the point the thread goes downhill, where your capacity for rational discussion runs dry and you sink to insults and putting words in others' mouths?
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Originally posted by d000hg View PostBut "living the way Jesus lived" would include having a personal relationship with God, healing the sick and all that stuff. Simply being a "good guy" is a very shallow simulacrum IMO. Sorry I wanted to use the word "simalcrum", hope it's the right use
I do not understand what you get from religion, to me it is a way of life, to you it is a book.
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