Reply to: Tips and Takeaways from My First 800-Mile EV Road Trip in Scotland

[vetran]

It could be, but you just have to look at demand prediction and then supply/reserves, the figures don't match. That's before we get into the whole morality of what cobalt mining actually is.

Yes energy infrastructure needs full overhaul, this needs to happen regardless and its going to be very expensive. Decarbonisation of electricity has to happen regardless.

its little kids with buckets & spades currently


You can change the demand by making the loads intelligent - dynamic economy7 & car charging. Forget air source heat pumps a few night storage heaters and HRVs would really help.

Replace natural gas heating in tower blocks with hydrogen & solar. Replace electric trains & smelting with hydrogen.

[malvolio]

It could be, but you just have to look at demand prediction and then supply/reserves, the figures don't match. That's before we get into the whole morality of what cobalt mining actually is.

Yes energy infrastructure needs full overhaul, this needs to happen regardless and its going to be very expensive. Decarbonisation of electricity has to happen regardless.

Well that's dead easy. What's the carbon footprint of a nuclear power station...? A small one would give enough electricity to split quite a lot of water into H2 and O2...

[JustKeepSwimming]

It's still apparently more expensive to recycle then get "fresh" materials for production. I'm sure it will change, the issue is recycling creates a bunch of waste as well which you then need to do something with, it also eats up a loads of energy, so overall it's a "what's worse" kind of scenario.

Similar to hydrogen production, tulip ton of energy is needed and co2 is produced in the process, so so much for it being green.

It could be, but you just have to look at demand prediction and then supply/reserves, the figures don't match. That's before we get into the whole morality of what cobalt mining actually is.

Yes energy infrastructure needs full overhaul, this needs to happen regardless and its going to be very expensive. Decarbonisation of electricity has to happen regardless.

[dsc]

The difference is the materials that go into batteries are scarce compared to rubber and steel. There is clear economic incentive to recycle batteries because the cost of fresh material is expensive and only going up, cobalt has doubled in like 3 years.

It's like saying 'No one will recycle gold because no one recycles plastic!' the economics are completely different.

It's still apparently more expensive to recycle then get "fresh" materials for production. I'm sure it will change, the issue is recycling creates a bunch of waste as well which you then need to do something with, it also eats up a loads of energy, so overall it's a "what's worse" kind of scenario.

Similar to hydrogen production, tulip ton of energy is needed and co2 is produced in the process, so so much for it being green.

[JustKeepSwimming]

You could have said that about tyres at one point and that never got done. All the countries that are used as dumps for old ships, tyres you name it will suffer the brunt of it. It will be cheaper to ship them to India/Bangladesh whereever and dump them.

The difference is the materials that go into batteries are scarce compared to rubber and steel. There is clear economic incentive to recycle batteries because the cost of fresh material is expensive and only going up, cobalt has doubled in like 3 years.

It's like saying 'No one will recycle gold because no one recycles plastic!' the economics are completely different.

[northernladuk]

Disagree. I don't think it's going to be a rosy as some think, and it's not plain sailing to 100% EV. No battery expert at all but from people who seem to be there is a lot of hope for some revolutionary new technology around the corner.

I think the biggest issue is pretty much all countries, including Western ones, will need to undergo post WW2 infrastructure modernisation to upgrade the grid. It's not something I see talked about a lot.

You could have said that about tyres at one point and that never got done. All the countries that are used as dumps for old ships, tyres you name it will suffer the brunt of it. It will be cheaper to ship them to India/Bangladesh whereever and dump them.

[dsc]

I wonder what happens to worn out batteries now? I guess there aren't that many at the moment to be much of a problem. But in a few years time...

Yeah not that many, although battery production companies already have recycling stations for batteries that simply fail production and need to be binned. Currently it's not economically viable to simply recycle, but I'm sure at some stage as EV production ramps up, the source of materials for battery production will run dry and they will have to keep stripping old ones.

I can see this becoming another plastic recycling problem all over again, everyone keeps saying "oh yes we have X amount of new tech just around the corner and it's great and will make recycling a breeze" and then 10yrs down the line it turns out there's issues with every single one of those technologies and no one bothers.

[wattaj]

You are more optimistic than I am. Batteries are going to be the next crisis our kids have to deal with IMO.

Shortly after the inability to recycle wind turbine blades... coming to a landfill near you soon.

[vetran]

You are more optimistic than I am. Batteries are going to be the next crisis our kids have to deal with IMO.

Totally agree! Decades ago I visited a well known & respected battery manufacturer and had a tour of their production line. They did not employ women of child bearing age because of the risks to an unborn child of the lead in the batteries which was sprayed all over the factory due to the process. This was their way of fixing the issue! No thought if its a deadly poison should all of our workers be protected?

Unless the used batteries have a significant value expect them to appear on Indian beaches after we have been charged top dollar to dispose of them just like tyres.

[JustKeepSwimming]

You are more optimistic than I am. Batteries are going to be the next crisis our kids have to deal with IMO.

Disagree. I don't think it's going to be a rosy as some think, and it's not plain sailing to 100% EV. No battery expert at all but from people who seem to be there is a lot of hope for some revolutionary new technology around the corner.

I think the biggest issue is pretty much all countries, including Western ones, will need to undergo post WW2 infrastructure modernisation to upgrade the grid. It's not something I see talked about a lot.

[northernladuk]

I think commodity prices + economies of scale + recycling tech advancements made recycling viable few years back. Absolutely without a shadow of a doubt the US and EU will mandate 100% recycling sooner or later.

I think I read each battery is worth about 4k in reusable minerals/metals. Like half the cost to build the thing in the first place.

You are more optimistic than I am. Batteries are going to be the next crisis our kids have to deal with IMO.

[JustKeepSwimming]

I wonder what happens to worn out batteries now? I guess there aren't that many at the moment to be much of a problem. But in a few years time...

I think commodity prices + economies of scale + recycling tech advancements made recycling viable few years back. Absolutely without a shadow of a doubt the US and EU will mandate 100% recycling sooner or later.

I think I read each battery is worth about 4k in reusable minerals/metals. Like half the cost to build the thing in the first place.

[woody1]

...what is a problem though is what the hell do you do with the used battery pack? recycle you say? sure, but it's an energy consuming, dangerous thing, so I can see this being another "all plastic is 100% recyclable" myth and us ending up with stacks upon stacks of old useless, huge battery packs from EVs that no one knows what to do with.

I wonder what happens to worn out batteries now? I guess there aren't that many at the moment to be much of a problem. But in a few years time...

[JustKeepSwimming]

EV = personal vehicles.

Hydrogen = commercial vehicles, planes/ships and probably trucks.

Hydrogen isn't viable for small vehicles, and EV isn't viable for big vehicles.

[malvolio]

Hydrogen is a bit tulipe as well, you need to keep it at super low temps, it's expensive, transportation is expensive and complex and the two existing cars that use hydrogen are tulipe compared to modern EVs. And you still need a battery on board of a hydrogen car.

Still can't see chargers being installed on most roads in say London, and this is what you'd need for people to use EVs on a massive scale.

No harder than LPG and we handle that regularly. If you mean H2 fuel cells then they are a battery. If you mean H2 ICEs then they're little different to normal cars.