Reply to: Sort of confirmed my suspicions

[clearedforlanding]

It's not whataboutery. If we want to see how the NHS can save money, then the above is examples of how money was spent on the NHS's behalf, and if that spending had been done through the NHS it would have cost a lot less and delivered a lot more.
Privatising the NHS does not solve the problem, in fact completely the opposite. It's the result of trying to privatise procurement, bypassing the process to make sure it goes to "the right people" rather than the people who know what they are doing - that's the problem.

Stop making sense. You are in the wrong place for it.

[OwlHoot]

You must have had a very similar experience to me. After squeezing out 100ml of pus they put in yards of bandage which a nurse pulled out of me like Sticky Vicky’s act (she didn’t use her mouth). Wouldn’t have believed it if I hadn’t seen it with my own eyes.

I wish you hadn’t reminded me of it.

You may be too young to have watched much Monty Python, but my post was based on one of their sketches. I haven't really had an operation, or seen a doctor, for over forty years.

(The last time was in the 1970s, to get some ointment for an itchy ear, caused by too much use of Johnson's ear buds, and the doctor advised me that the only thing I should put in my ear is my elbow!)

edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue7wM0QC5LE

[Paralytic]

I haven't used the NHS for years. Can I get a refund of some sort?

Yes, they've been dishing them out for the past year or so in the form of injections - you get your rebate over 3 installments.

[Destiny2]

I haven't used the NHS for years. Can I get a refund of some sort?

[malvolio]

That’s what the surgeon said, but you know the public sector, he was probably just being lazy.

By stopping you coming back in a week or two with a massive, and probably infected, abscess that would require both surgery and follow-up treatment to cure. So perhaps, effective rather than lazy...

[hugebrain]

You do realise that some wounds need to drain freely, so stitching them closed would cause far more problems than some serious but sadly necessary discomfort...

That’s what the surgeon said, but you know the public sector, he was probably just being lazy.

[malvolio]

You must have had a very similar experience to me. After squeezing out 100ml of pus they put in yards of bandage which a nurse pulled out of me like Sticky Vicky’s act (she didn’t use her mouth). Wouldn’t have believed it if I hadn’t seen it with my own eyes.

I wish you hadn’t reminded me of it.

You do realise that some wounds need to drain freely, so stitching them closed would cause far more problems than some serious but sadly necessary discomfort...

[hugebrain]

Unstitched wound? Luxury! When I was sent home, I had an unstitched wound, and I was pulling wadding out of it for a week, like a conjuror pulling hankies out of their mouth, and when I jumped up and down I rattled like a bag of spanners from all the forceps and clamps they'd left in. And when you tell that to young people today, they won't believe you!

You must have had a very similar experience to me. After squeezing out 100ml of pus they put in yards of bandage which a nurse pulled out of me like Sticky Vicky’s act (she didn’t use her mouth). Wouldn’t have believed it if I hadn’t seen it with my own eyes.

I wish you hadn’t reminded me of it.

[vetran]

Need to be a bit careful about Australian population density. Some 95% of them live within 5 miles of the sea...

I've always thought the best model is basically the NHS with mandatory insurance policies for chronic illness and old age support. Problem there is paying for the insurance. And the care home/hospice/recovery system (such as it is) is badly broken (and I speak as one who is getting ever closer to needing it!) which if it worked properly would help hospital services enormously.

The problem with bringing in Insurance is that the scumbag insurance firms would wriggle out of responsibility and a significant percentage wouldn't buy insurance just like those who didn't pay for a pension.

[vetran]

"We" can learn from multiple sources. I didn't specify that we could only learn from France, which seems odd that you think I said to completely ignore everyone else.

Looking at population density of Australia it is not very similar to the UK. Similarly with Sweden
UK: 277 people/km²
Australia: 3 people/km²
Sweden: 22 people/km²


I notice you have edited your post since making it. I didn't forget or leave out things, I was commenting on one point.
e.g. charging for a doctor's appointment does not impact how long someone stays in hospital, does it?
But it's a good idea to charge and refund for those who can afford, and offer free for those who can't.

No you just got things wrong. The bit I left out was that the Kings fund selected the countries so I added it

Population density affects how long a person stays in hospital - interesting?

Actually charging and restricting for resources frequently affects how they are used. I can't get an appointment with my doctor unless I start phoning at 8am, our French friend phones up at 10 am and gets an appointment that day. An organisation that charges fees tends to have better resource control as the accountants see profit.

I was totally for charging for missing appointments.

[malvolio]

"We" can learn from multiple sources. I didn't specify that we could only learn from France, which seems odd that you think I said to completely ignore everyone else.

Looking at population density of Australia it is not very similar to the UK. Similarly with Sweden
UK: 277 people/km²
Australia: 3 people/km²
Sweden: 22 people/km²


I notice you have edited your post since making it. I didn't forget or leave out things, I was commenting on one point.
e.g. charging for a doctor's appointment does not impact how long someone stays in hospital, does it?
But it's a good idea to charge and refund for those who can afford, and offer free for those who can't.

Need to be a bit careful about Australian population density. Some 95% of them live within 5 miles of the sea...

I've always thought the best model is basically the NHS with mandatory insurance policies for chronic illness and old age support. Problem there is paying for the insurance. And the care home/hospice/recovery system (such as it is) is badly broken (and I speak as one who is getting ever closer to needing it!) which if it worked properly would help hospital services enormously.

[WTFH]

Though your idea we can only learn from our Gallic cousins seems odd. Australia is probably closest genetically we populated it most recently, Sweden have many sensible processes to protect their health service.

"We" can learn from multiple sources. I didn't specify that we could only learn from France, which seems odd that you think I said to completely ignore everyone else.

Looking at population density of Australia it is not very similar to the UK. Similarly with Sweden
UK: 277 people/km²
Australia: 3 people/km²
Sweden: 22 people/km²


I notice you have edited your post since making it. I didn't forget or leave out things, I was commenting on one point.
e.g. charging for a doctor's appointment does not impact how long someone stays in hospital, does it?
But it's a good idea to charge and refund for those who can afford, and offer free for those who can't.

[SueEllen]

Oh so you can easily identify issues with our health service that if we fixed we could save £400 a night per blocked bed! See how easy it is?

They also charge €10 a time for a Doctors appointment and you have to have a health card before they see you. If you are non French they want a credit card to cover the bill. You missed those bits!

Their care home costs are cheaper than ours.

https://www.french-property.com/news..._elderly_costs

Though your idea we can only learn from our Gallic cousins seems odd. Australia is probably closest genetically we populated it most recently, Sweden & Norway (where our Norse ancestors came from) have many sensible processes to protect their health service.


Oh by the way I didn't list them the Kings Fund did. In their expert opinion they believe they are relevant.

The French people I've met have no complaints about their health system. The only complaints are from foreign nationals who have had to present a credit card or other proof of payment before they can get treatment.

The Swedish and Australian people I've met have some complaints. So do some of the Brits I know who have worked in Australian healthcare.

The few people I know and met who live in Norway are healthy so I've not had a talk with them about their health care system.

[vetran]

Of the 4 you listed, France would be the closest comparison - similar population size and similar population age profile. Yet in France they spend 25% more per person on healthcare than the UK.
So, France spends more and has better results.
Equally, doctors are more keen there to get patients onto prescriptions and out of the waiting room, hence why there are so many pharmacies (about 2x as many as the UK). They've got a higher % of nurses than the UK, a longer life expectancy, a lower obesity rate and lower rate of heart disease.

Oh so you can easily identify issues with our health service that if we fixed we could save £400 a night per blocked bed! See how easy it is?

They also charge €10 a time for a Doctors appointment and you have to have a health card before they see you. If you are non French they want a credit card to cover the bill. You missed those bits!

Their care home costs are cheaper than ours.

https://www.french-property.com/news..._elderly_costs

Though your idea we can only learn from our Gallic cousins seems odd. Australia is probably closest genetically we populated it most recently, Sweden & Norway (where our Norse ancestors came from) have many sensible processes to protect their health service.


Oh by the way I didn't list them the Kings Fund did. In their expert opinion they believe they are relevant.

[WTFH]

One of the first things you do when looking at a business efficiency is compare it to its peers. If it takes Swindon 2 days to deliver product at a cost of £30 a pallet and Hull 4 days at a cost of £80 you can probably make Hull cheaper & faster by reorganising it or changing suppliers.

Of the 4 you listed, France would be the closest comparison - similar population size and similar population age profile. Yet in France they spend 25% more per person on healthcare than the UK.
So, France spends more and has better results.
Equally, doctors are more keen there to get patients onto prescriptions and out of the waiting room, hence why there are so many pharmacies (about 2x as many as the UK). They've got a higher % of nurses than the UK, a longer life expectancy, a lower obesity rate and lower rate of heart disease.