Reply to: Apprenticeships

[DoctorStrangelove]

'Orowitz & 'Ill.

There's a copy of the 2nd edition in the front room "office" somewhere if I ever have the desire to write stuff for the 68000.

I've seen the 3rd edition but the desire to possess a copy passed me by, oddly enough.

[vetran]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, "Let there be light," and someone using H&H calculated the forward current of an LED and there was light.


https://artofelectronics.net/

Literally the bible for electronics engineers. Its long, dry but very very good.

I still open my first edition (Black cover), I should really buy a 2nd edition (Silver cover) or that new fangled 3rd edition - gold cover. Were I gricer I could list the typographic errors. Thank goodness I'm not.

Pretty sure Zeity has a copy propping up a table somewhere.

[vetran]

A lot can't cope with the maths .

What is H&H ?

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, "Let there be light," and someone using H&H calculated the forward current of an LED and there was light.


https://artofelectronics.net/

Literally the bible for electronics engineers. Its long, dry but very very good.

I still open my first edition (Black cover), I should really buy a 2nd edition (Silver cover) or that new fangled 3rd edition - gold cover. Were I gricer I could list the typographic errors. Thank goodness I'm not.

[minestrone]

With degrees like Mech Eng you can choose to do something like 3 years for the BSc, 4 years for the MEng, 4 years for the BSc with a year in industry and 5 years for the MEng with a year industry.

This means when the economy is bad students just don't do the year in industry.

I've also worked at a few companies where they have had a uni student for a year. Unfortunately one of those companies went bust near the end of that student's placement. (I had left by then).

About 20% of mech eng graduates get mech eng jobs. There is no appetite for any education/industry tie up. Maybe the odd university that facilitates some nearby, never going to close factory like RR.

[Scorp1]

Imagine the millennials studying electronics via H&H now.

A lot can't cope with the maths .

What is H&H ?

[Scorp1]

That's interesting. I always thought that apprenticeships were for youngsters and that by 30 you're assumed to have a career well under way (for the purposes of such a scheme, I mean)

officially for a modern apprenticeship, it's up to the age of 24. Years ago it was 16 to 21. I

[SueEllen]

I did mechanical engineering, the students were meant to have some kind of industry sponsor thing going on along side the course and the uni binned it as like only 2 people had one. They were from Rolls Royce as nobody else could afford to pay a few grand to a student per year to get a guaranteed grad hire.

I knew a few people that did engineering apprenticeships, they got like 1 day a week in a further education college where they tried to get them to understand some basic maths. They all just met up with their mates from other firms and smoked hash before going in. The groups are not compatible.

And that is the problem with all these apprentice/degree combinations, they sound fantastic but every few years there is some downturn and the nation's supply of engineers gets interrupted which takes a decade to turn around. Mech Eng is a 5 year degree. Training has to be decoupled from industry.

With degrees like Mech Eng you can choose to do something like 3 years for the BSc, 4 years for the MEng, 4 years for the BSc with a year in industry and 5 years for the MEng with a year industry.

This means when the economy is bad students just don't do the year in industry.

I've also worked at a few companies where they have had a uni student for a year. Unfortunately one of those companies went bust near the end of that student's placement. (I had left by then).

[SueEllen]

Mind you, you get people like Dame Vivienne Westwood who take on graduates on unpaid internships. Silly ***.

Unfortunately young people think certain roles in fashion, journalism, advertising and TV are glamorous. So will happily be paid peanuts for working hard.

They don't realise that there are other roles in all those industries or allied roles to those industries where they can get a decent income.

[minestrone]

I did mechanical engineering, the students were meant to have some kind of industry sponsor thing going on along side the course and the uni binned it as like only 2 people had one. They were from Rolls Royce as nobody else could afford to pay a few grand to a student per year to get a guaranteed grad hire.

I knew a few people that did engineering apprenticeships, they got like 1 day a week in a further education college where they tried to get them to understand some basic maths. They all just met up with their mates from other firms and smoked hash before going in. The groups are not compatible.

And that is the problem with all these apprentice/degree combinations, they sound fantastic but every few years there is some downturn and the nation's supply of engineers gets interrupted which takes a decade to turn around. Mech Eng is a 5 year degree. Training has to be decoupled from industry.

[NotAllThere]

I've seen people in the textiles, clothing industry and fashion do it the other way round.

They get a degree, which will be from a newer university as those are the universities that have always specialised in those courses, then do an apprenticeship.

That happens here as well for certain apprenticeships - like architecture. And anyone can choose to change career and do an apprenticeship. Of course, the wages are lousy, so you can't afford it unless you've savings or live with your parents. Although my daughter in law got an apprenticeship with Roche in Basel, but comes from Schaffhausen. Her parents were low income, so she got a government stipend.

Mind you, you get people like Dame Vivienne Westwood who take on graduates on unpaid internships. Silly ***.

[Lost It]

I started my apprenticeship with the Coal board back in the 1970's, did a year at a Tech college, then another 5 years until I f=got to HNC level then stopped because I didn't get any more pay for going higher up the ladder (I was young) but even now I know how to work out KLocomotive tow bar pull. never used it. And how to work out the heat transfer from Dry Superheated steam compared to Wet superheated steam. Again never used it, still have my original Log tables and Slide rule somewhere...

But the actual "hands on" side of working down a coal mine is where I learned my trade, as in you can't just nip to the stores for a part if you are 7 miles from the shaft so have to learn to modify what you have, adapt etc. That's the kind of thing that isn't really taught any more unless you are in the Navy/Army. I learned to make things work using just my head and whatever tools and parts we had to keep the machinery going until we could get new stuff in, it was only my opinion but probably the best apprenticeship0 ever because every prime mover down a coal mine "belonged" to the mechanical staff.
So you learn to describe stuff. How to specify what you need, how to think past blockages. Then the strike happens and you realise during your "year off" that your skills are useable in just about any other trade, it's why I got into bulding and why I'm now a site manager that can't understand why the Degree owning people we get who like to think are managers don't have an effin clue how to work quite simple logistics problems out.
I'll bet if these newly degree'd up people did standard apprenticeships after their degree the coulntry would be much better equipped inj the future?

[northernladuk]

No. The point is successive governments have pushed degrees more than apprenticeships. They should be more balanced. Furthermore, you can do an apprenticeship and then go to university later - and being older you'll probably get more out of it.

Ah right. Didn't know that. I've actually contracted on the DfE's apprenticeship offering services and they are absolutely committed to it so maybe I've been too close to that and missed the bigger picture.

I think apprenticeships are great. My beef is with UK government policy generally pushing degrees.

If that is the case then yes, that's absolutely wrong. Good apprenticeships are worth their weight in gold. I've got one lad in uni, the other on a degree apprenticeship and I can't for the life of me think why Uni is a good option.

I'm not sure why you think I think that! My aim here was not to say Swiss apprenticeships are great, UK ones are crap, rather that it's a shame that in the UK apprenticeships aren't as much seen as entirely viable alternatives to going direct to university.

And I'd totally agree. Maybe I've been too close to apprenticeships with my lad on one, I did one and working on the service I missed the alternative to Uni angle.

The government should be doing more to create more good quality apprenticeships.

Totally agree with that for sure but they are out there if people really really want them and are willing to work hard.

Tell you one thing I did see which I assume is part of the failing of the govt to push apprenticeships harder, and it might just have been sector specific but there were so many applicants and so few places the bar was set very high. They had the two year apprenticeships that put the applicant through BTEC before going on to a degree aimed at school leavers in place of A levels. Everyone that was taken on had already done A levels at his firm. Although the entry criteria was GCSE from school the people picked already had the A levels. The applicants were seeing it as second best option to going straight on to the degree program with their A levels.

The gov can say they there are X00's of school leaver programmes out there but no school leavers were getting the best ones leading to degrees.

[vetran]

Indeed. Porn gives a false impression of plumbers; they're never available when you need one.

and some won't go round your U bend!

[LondonManc]

As my mate the plumber told me 40 years ago even the queen needs a plumber, he had the first mobile phone I ever saw, a huge Mercedes van and a house twice the size of the rest of us. plumbing has always been good money.

Lot less risk than being a doctor!

Indeed. Porn gives a false impression of plumbers; they're never available when you need one.

[northernladuk]

That's interesting. I always thought that apprenticeships were for youngsters and that by 30 you're assumed to have a career well under way (for the purposes of such a scheme, I mean)

Nope. The Coop Retail apprentices are all internal staff who want a career change. Their oldest apprentice last time I heard was in their late 40's. They take some from their academies for the low end apprentice gigs but the good stuff is offerent to employees.