Reply to: Bank of England publishes Review of Ethnic Diversity and Inclusion at the Bank

[vetran]

The NHS, farming, veterinary services and academic research would have to raise wages and train people so it won't happen....

FTFY

[vetran]

Yes, astonishingly people have to be reminded it was an African surgeon who did the first heart transplant.

Yes Christian Barnard based on work done in America though how it has any relevance in BAME discussion I am not sure? I would suspect his Afrikaans accent would grate on most liberal interviewers.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiaan_Barnard

Plenty of famous people of recent African extraction about

https://www.biography.com/tag/black-history

[vetran]

Only a matter of time before "Baroness" Harding gets the gig.


Due to her sterling efforts in all her previous roles.

qh

she ticks most of the right boxes..

[Jog On]

Interesting publication from the Bank of England:

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/news...on-at-the-bank

What about trans representation?

[quackhandle]

Only a matter of time before "Baroness" Harding gets the gig.


Due to her sterling efforts in all her previous roles.

qh

[northernladuk]

Interesting situation has cropped up in this area.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ed-accent.html

Now if the panel did laugh then yes there is a case to be had here and heads should roll but putting that bit to one side.. it says in the text...

Keswani, who was working for the BBC's Persian service at the time, said she should have been given the job under the Equality Act 2010 but was unfairly marked down during her interview.

Had she been 'scored fairly', she would have been ranked as an equal to second-placed candidates, meaning the BBC would have to give her the job under equality law as she is non-white, she said.

Keswani, who also chairs the diversity action group at The Production Guild, argued the 'soft skills' section of her interview put her at a disadvantage and claims it was racist.

So you come second best in an interview but get the job by law? Isn't this an example of where equality of opportunity doesn't really work? Should we be calling a process that is based on particular requirements and is applied fairly across everyone racist? If it is disadvantageous to some should it be changed? If someone went in to that interview that was just crap at softskills should they be given the same consideration as this lady?

I'm all for equality and I find it hard to believe that institutions really are racist in this day and age (although there is some damming evidence around to be fair) but calling a fair process racist and giving roles to second place candidates doesn't seem right to me at all.

Is this type of stuff really needed and how does it help the corp that is applying it? Where is the line drawn?

[minestrone]

It's not relevant as there are known issues in the recruitment, promotion and disciplining of doctors. I deliberately used a British educated doctor who would fit the BAME category as an example that anyone can be the "best" surgeon.

Anyway the problem with reports on diversity is that they are simplistic as they ignore other factors that are more prominent in British society e.g. class as not all graduates are the same.

When organisations say they are going to be more diverse in who they recruit and promote then are they going to start recruiting more people with a background like Gavin Williamsons' or Priti Patel's? Or are they actually just looking for black and other people of colour who have a background similar to Kwasi Kwarteng's?

Yes, astonishingly people have to be reminded it was an African surgeon who did the first heart transplant.

[SueEllen]

It is stupid in the way he put it yes but if he'd worded it a little better he might have had a point. Not one that makes a difference in the example he gave, more in the underlying numbers. From an analysis of struck off NHS staff.



Looking a the stats of struck off doctors there is most definitely a trend. 50% of doctors struck off were BAME... when they make up only 22% of the NHS is an eye opener for sure. I believe research suggests that BAME applicants are more likely to not disclose their ethnicity in polls so could be quite a bit more skewed that it is. No denying there is an trend here.

add in..


So FCats post was really poor but what he was getting at most definitely exists, although not very relevant to the discussion I don't think.

It's not relevant as there are known issues in the recruitment, promotion and disciplining of doctors. I deliberately used a British educated doctor who would fit the BAME category as an example that anyone can be the "best" surgeon.

Anyway the problem with reports on diversity is that they are simplistic as they ignore other factors that are more prominent in British society e.g. class as not all graduates are the same.

When organisations say they are going to be more diverse in who they recruit and promote then are they going to start recruiting more people with a background like Gavin Williamsons' or Priti Patel's? Or are they actually just looking for black and other people of colour who have a background similar to Kwasi Kwarteng's?

[minestrone]

Can you imagine the chaos if we forced financials to publish ethnicity reports.

"Quick Miriam, the suitcases, it's happening again!"

[northernladuk]

That is a stupid example if you know about anything about the NHS particularly about doctors training.

The ones that people "think" are the best aren't - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...-a9316296.html

If your surgery is that complex you want a team of people doing it and want it done at a well known hospital or teaching hospital. That means a great number of the people in the team will be BAME e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54385415 where a team of 100 people were involved and the lead surgeon was this guy - https://www.gosh.ae/consultants/mr-owase-jeelani

It is stupid in the way he put it yes but if he'd worded it a little better he might have had a point. Not one that makes a difference in the example he gave, more in the underlying numbers. From an analysis of struck off NHS staff.

doctors of Black and Minority Ethnic (BME) origin were more likely to feature than white doctors (50% of doctors were BME and 23% were white, the ethnicity of the remaining 27% was unknown). Previous research has found that male doctors, doctors over the age of 50 and BME doctors are also more likely to be complained about (The state of medical education and practice in the UK (SoMEP), 2014).

Looking a the stats of struck off doctors there is most definitely a trend. 50% of doctors struck off were BAME... when they make up only 22% of the NHS is an eye opener for sure. I believe research suggests that BAME applicants are more likely to not disclose their ethnicity in polls so could be quite a bit more skewed that it is. No denying there is an trend here.

add in..

The cases were more likely to involve doctors that qualified outside of the UK (69%) than doctors that qualified in the UK (31%).

So FCats post was really poor but what he was getting at most definitely exists, although not very relevant to the discussion I don't think.

[SueEllen]

Who decides who is the most disadvantaged?

Why are BAME people and women considered more worthy of positive discrimination than say a poor white man with mental health issues?

It normally comes down to keeping various groups happy so those in power can get their votes.

The civil service and other large companies are now asking applicants if they received free school meals at school plus their parents education level and jobs.

This is to help show they have a wide pool of applicants and employ people from a range of social backgrounds.

Where it falls down is that the criteria for getting free school meals has changed a lot since their oldest possible applicants parents started working plus you need more education now to do a job then previously. For example nurses now all need degrees but they didn't in the 1980s.

[SueEllen]

The only things that matters is competence.

You (or someone you love) needs a life saving operation eg brain surgery.. do you want the white doctor who is most competent or do want the BAME or female diversity hire??

That is a stupid example if you know about anything about the NHS particularly about doctors training.

The ones that people "think" are the best aren't - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...-a9316296.html

If your surgery is that complex you want a team of people doing it and want it done at a well known hospital or teaching hospital. That means a great number of the people in the team will be BAME e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54385415 where a team of 100 people were involved and the lead surgeon was this guy - https://www.gosh.ae/consultants/mr-owase-jeelani

[SueEllen]

Like India, who up until 2010 only allowed companys to employ 1% of people on visas. Just imagine if the UK put a cap like that on. There would a world wide outrage.

The NHS, farming, veterinary services and academic research would fall apart so it won't happen....

[pr1]

The only things that matters is competence.

You (or someone you love) needs a life saving operation eg brain surgery.. do you want the white doctor who is most competent or do want the BAME or female diversity hire??

Besides it is impossible to list the all the ways a person can be disadvantaged in life and discriminated against in the workplace.
Skin colour, gender, sexual orientation, height, attractiveness, weight, accent, net worth, mental illnesses, disabilities, childhood abuse and neglect, drug addition..

Who decides who is the most disadvantaged?

Why are BAME people and women considered more worthy of positive discrimination than say a poor white man with mental health issues?

It normally comes down to keeping various groups happy so those in power can get their votes.

Obviously it's natural for you to try to jump to an example and invoke an emotional response but the reality is the vast majority of jobs in the Bank of England barely require any experience of brain surgery at all

Like I qualified in my summary, it's just my opinion on how these reports manage to repeatedly come to the conclusions they do but to take your specific example, are you implying that you would only accept the most competent doctor in the entire world to do the surgery? Or would you be happy enough with the second best in the world, etc? Unless you are, for example, a formula1 racing team looking for the best driver in the world then most other jobs have some degree of wiggle room for being able to hire "very good" rather than "perfect"

[Fraidycat]

on average the best person will still be white

Some level of positive discrimination is required to an in order to diversify the workforce and offer opportunities to all, be it BAME, women, disabled, etc.

The only things that matters is competence.

You (or someone you love) needs a life saving operation eg brain surgery.. do you want the white doctor who is most competent or do want the BAME or female diversity hire??

Besides it is impossible to list the all the ways a person can be disadvantaged in life and discriminated against in the workplace.
Skin colour, gender, sexual orientation, height, attractiveness, weight, accent, net worth, mental illnesses, disabilities, childhood abuse and neglect, drug addition..

Who decides who is the most disadvantaged?

Why are BAME people and women considered more worthy of positive discrimination than say a poor white man with mental health issues?

It normally comes down to keeping various groups happy so those in power can get their votes.