Bank of England publishes Review of Ethnic Diversity and Inclusion at the Bank

[northernladuk]

(in my opinion)
For the sake of argument let's assume the population is 80% white and 20% BAME

If you are employing 1 person out of a list of, say 100 candidates, then all other things being equal statistically 4 times out of 5 that person will be white - so far so good. However,

White people (on average) in the UK have had a better upbringing, better educational opportunities, better "connections" for getting work experience than BAME people and so on average are more likely to be at the "top" of a list of criteria that are based around such things - because on average they have white parents who had better upbringings or work in higher up roles and so were able to such opportunities to their kids, while on average BAME parents (or grandparents, or great grandparents) grew up in another country with many fewer opportunities to succeed at these criteria

This means that even with 25, 30, 40% BAME population, on average the best person will still be white

If you always employ the "best" person then on the balance of probabilities you will almost always be employing a white person. If everyone working somewhere sees the top positions being filled by white people (because they were perceived the "best" of out a list at the time of being appointed), then the workforce becomes disenfranchised and constantly feels like "I will never be good enough". Some level of positive discrimination is required to an in order to diversify the workforce and offer opportunities to all, be it BAME, women, disabled, etc. Always tunnel-visioning on the "best" person for the job is "stuck in the box" thinking, you need to see the bigger picture and the impact that such decisions can have on everyone else at the company (and by extrapolation, society) which is why reports like these end up with conclusions like they do

That's a really good point actually and yes it would appear that is a massive factor to be considered. On that basis any positive discrimination would unfortuantely mean you are not employing the best people which will have knock on effects in surveys like this down the line where it looks like BAME employees are performing worse, which they naturally will be due to the recruitment process. We have clear evidence of this in the report. How you correct all this will be a minefield. It will certainly correct itself through generations as the young set coming through will be just as well educated.

That said in this particular case it does mention a 44% retention of BAME from the graduate scheme. This groupshouldn't be part of the issue mentioned. They've been through the same educational system as everyone else with the same results so that pool of people will be just as well educated so out of a pool of 44% there is an unbalanced number of equally educated applicants. Half the recruits are from 20% of the population so something good must be taken from that. To then apply affirmative action to a highly disproportionate group of applicants seems a step too far.

Maybe they should break their figures down by BAME employees at different levels. There will certainly be an unbalanced number of applicants for senior jobs requiring decades of experience because of what you said but it shouldn't be, and isn't as the numbers suggest, be a problem for highly educated younger employees.

Unforunately 'we are getting there and it's partly a generational issue that will balance in time' is not an acceptable conclusion to anything.

[northernladuk]

You know the exact same thing happens in reverse in other countries?

I look forward to the UAE & Pakistan pushing affirmative action. My experience is that most UK companies have equally inept senior managers regardless of gender or colour.

Like India, who up until 2010 only allowed companys to employ 1% of people on visas. Just imagine if the UK put a cap like that on. There would a world wide outrage.

[Fraidycat]

on average the best person will still be white

Some level of positive discrimination is required to an in order to diversify the workforce and offer opportunities to all, be it BAME, women, disabled, etc.

The only things that matters is competence.

You (or someone you love) needs a life saving operation eg brain surgery.. do you want the white doctor who is most competent or do want the BAME or female diversity hire??

Besides it is impossible to list the all the ways a person can be disadvantaged in life and discriminated against in the workplace.
Skin colour, gender, sexual orientation, height, attractiveness, weight, accent, net worth, mental illnesses, disabilities, childhood abuse and neglect, drug addition..

Who decides who is the most disadvantaged?

Why are BAME people and women considered more worthy of positive discrimination than say a poor white man with mental health issues?

It normally comes down to keeping various groups happy so those in power can get their votes.

[pr1]

The only things that matters is competence.

You (or someone you love) needs a life saving operation eg brain surgery.. do you want the white doctor who is most competent or do want the BAME or female diversity hire??

Besides it is impossible to list the all the ways a person can be disadvantaged in life and discriminated against in the workplace.
Skin colour, gender, sexual orientation, height, attractiveness, weight, accent, net worth, mental illnesses, disabilities, childhood abuse and neglect, drug addition..

Who decides who is the most disadvantaged?

Why are BAME people and women considered more worthy of positive discrimination than say a poor white man with mental health issues?

It normally comes down to keeping various groups happy so those in power can get their votes.

Obviously it's natural for you to try to jump to an example and invoke an emotional response but the reality is the vast majority of jobs in the Bank of England barely require any experience of brain surgery at all

Like I qualified in my summary, it's just my opinion on how these reports manage to repeatedly come to the conclusions they do but to take your specific example, are you implying that you would only accept the most competent doctor in the entire world to do the surgery? Or would you be happy enough with the second best in the world, etc? Unless you are, for example, a formula1 racing team looking for the best driver in the world then most other jobs have some degree of wiggle room for being able to hire "very good" rather than "perfect"

[SueEllen]

Like India, who up until 2010 only allowed companys to employ 1% of people on visas. Just imagine if the UK put a cap like that on. There would a world wide outrage.

The NHS, farming, veterinary services and academic research would fall apart so it won't happen....

[SueEllen]

The only things that matters is competence.

You (or someone you love) needs a life saving operation eg brain surgery.. do you want the white doctor who is most competent or do want the BAME or female diversity hire??

That is a stupid example if you know about anything about the NHS particularly about doctors training.

The ones that people "think" are the best aren't - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...-a9316296.html

If your surgery is that complex you want a team of people doing it and want it done at a well known hospital or teaching hospital. That means a great number of the people in the team will be BAME e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54385415 where a team of 100 people were involved and the lead surgeon was this guy - https://www.gosh.ae/consultants/mr-owase-jeelani

[SueEllen]

Who decides who is the most disadvantaged?

Why are BAME people and women considered more worthy of positive discrimination than say a poor white man with mental health issues?

It normally comes down to keeping various groups happy so those in power can get their votes.

The civil service and other large companies are now asking applicants if they received free school meals at school plus their parents education level and jobs.

This is to help show they have a wide pool of applicants and employ people from a range of social backgrounds.

Where it falls down is that the criteria for getting free school meals has changed a lot since their oldest possible applicants parents started working plus you need more education now to do a job then previously. For example nurses now all need degrees but they didn't in the 1980s.

[northernladuk]

That is a stupid example if you know about anything about the NHS particularly about doctors training.

The ones that people "think" are the best aren't - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/h...-a9316296.html

If your surgery is that complex you want a team of people doing it and want it done at a well known hospital or teaching hospital. That means a great number of the people in the team will be BAME e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54385415 where a team of 100 people were involved and the lead surgeon was this guy - https://www.gosh.ae/consultants/mr-owase-jeelani

It is stupid in the way he put it yes but if he'd worded it a little better he might have had a point. Not one that makes a difference in the example he gave, more in the underlying numbers. From an analysis of struck off NHS staff.

doctors of Black and Minority Ethnic (BME) origin were more likely to feature than white doctors (50% of doctors were BME and 23% were white, the ethnicity of the remaining 27% was unknown). Previous research has found that male doctors, doctors over the age of 50 and BME doctors are also more likely to be complained about (The state of medical education and practice in the UK (SoMEP), 2014).

Looking a the stats of struck off doctors there is most definitely a trend. 50% of doctors struck off were BAME... when they make up only 22% of the NHS is an eye opener for sure. I believe research suggests that BAME applicants are more likely to not disclose their ethnicity in polls so could be quite a bit more skewed that it is. No denying there is an trend here.

add in..

The cases were more likely to involve doctors that qualified outside of the UK (69%) than doctors that qualified in the UK (31%).

So FCats post was really poor but what he was getting at most definitely exists, although not very relevant to the discussion I don't think.

[minestrone]

Can you imagine the chaos if we forced financials to publish ethnicity reports.

"Quick Miriam, the suitcases, it's happening again!"

[SueEllen]

It is stupid in the way he put it yes but if he'd worded it a little better he might have had a point. Not one that makes a difference in the example he gave, more in the underlying numbers. From an analysis of struck off NHS staff.



Looking a the stats of struck off doctors there is most definitely a trend. 50% of doctors struck off were BAME... when they make up only 22% of the NHS is an eye opener for sure. I believe research suggests that BAME applicants are more likely to not disclose their ethnicity in polls so could be quite a bit more skewed that it is. No denying there is an trend here.

add in..


So FCats post was really poor but what he was getting at most definitely exists, although not very relevant to the discussion I don't think.

It's not relevant as there are known issues in the recruitment, promotion and disciplining of doctors. I deliberately used a British educated doctor who would fit the BAME category as an example that anyone can be the "best" surgeon.

Anyway the problem with reports on diversity is that they are simplistic as they ignore other factors that are more prominent in British society e.g. class as not all graduates are the same.

When organisations say they are going to be more diverse in who they recruit and promote then are they going to start recruiting more people with a background like Gavin Williamsons' or Priti Patel's? Or are they actually just looking for black and other people of colour who have a background similar to Kwasi Kwarteng's?