Reply to: Death of outside contracting

[Scoobos]

Cheers Para,

I do feel like I'm going a bit mad though, I'm saying they already have an Outside determination, that is valid and that was run against this current contract. That makes me OUTSIDE doesnt it - the statement itself even says that, from HMRC - as long as nothing changes and the questions were answered accurately and honestly. There's no grey area and I rather like the fact the client did it off their own back.

It is as you say, the agent is trying to capitalise on the IR35, they've offered a "free IR35 workshop" and has essentially told them some lovely lines like:

You need to use QDOS or a third party as HMRC SDS documents still need validation by a third party to be "totally safe".
You need to run a Status Determination at least every 12 months, but we recommend 6
We understand you think you're fine and have done everything required, but lets hold a "free" workshop next Monday to discuss why you may need to rethink.


I'm not fighting my corner, I'm tired anyway, I've not had a break since the pandemic started - I'd rather the agency loses out, after this. What utter cretins.. Honestly.

Just wanted to post here and continue to make it clear, as I can see this becoming more of a problem than IR35 ever was, Agents once again trying to capitalise on fear or uncertainty.

By the way - The SDS reasons for being clear cut are surprising , as you say its:

"You have indicated that you would accept a substitute"
"You do not have control over this work"

EDITED: Rather than barking on here, just read Cojak's excellent IR35 post, there's enough warning / info in there .

[Paralytic]

I don't think I've written this clearly .

The client wasn't doing anything - the client came to me and asked if I wanted to renew for 12 months. They have an existing SDS showing outside, done from day 1 of the contract , which is the same contract as now.

The Agency then contacted the client telling them about the IR35 legislation coming in and then sold them a IR35 workshop meeting and told them they should re-do the SDS and use QDOS via them.

Now the client is unsettled .

Anyhoo, maybe Im misreading something, or you are. I realise I don't exactly write concise posts

It sounds like the agency has said something to the client which has now got them questioning whether you have been/will be outside IR35. For example, perhaps they did not previously understand the extent of their obligations and/or their risk after April.

And whilst "I also have multiple clients, worked from home before the pandemic , have no MOO - (this client cut me immediately on the lockdown, then re-engaged later on) - use my own kit. etc etc." may sound good, they are not actually the clear-cut indicators of an outside gig that many expect/hope they will be.

Horrible situation to be in, but you can't undo what the agency has done, so you have to fight your corner and see if you can get your client to commit to giving you an outside determination. If they won't, you've got a decision to make...

[GhostofTarbera]

I don't think I've written this clearly .

The client wasn't doing anything - the client came to me and asked if I wanted to renew for 12 months. They have an existing SDS showing outside, done from day 1 of the contract , which is the same contract as now.

The Agency then contacted the client telling them about the IR35 legislation coming in and then sold them a IR35 workshop meeting and told them they should re-do the SDS and use QDOS via them.

Now the client is unsettled .

Anyhoo, maybe Im misreading something, or you are. I realise I don't exactly write concise posts

It’s very clear


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[Scoobos]

I don't think I've written this clearly .

The client wasn't doing anything - the client came to me and asked if I wanted to renew for 12 months. They have an existing SDS showing outside, done from day 1 of the contract , which is the same contract as now.

The Agency then contacted the client telling them about the IR35 legislation coming in and then sold them a IR35 workshop meeting and told them they should re-do the SDS and use QDOS via them.

Now the client is unsettled .

Anyhoo, maybe Im misreading something, or you are. I realise I don't exactly write concise posts

[GhostofTarbera]

I'm intrigued by the follow up and backing - what gives you the impression I was in all along?

My impression is I am and will be deemed OUTSIDE, because I can't be anymore outside - and the agency is just trying to improve its revenue by selling QDOS assessments to clients.

The HMRC SDS States:
Off-payroll working rules (IR35) do not apply
Why you are getting this result
Your answers told us:
you have accepted, or would accept, a substitute
you do not have control over this work
This suggests the worker is working on a business to business basis


I also have multiple clients, worked from home before the pandemic , have no MOO - (this client cut me immediately on the lockdown, then re-engaged later on) - use my own kit. etc etc.

As outside as I've ever been.

But my post was trying to say, that I believe the actual agent is causing the problem and increasing the risk, by trying to sell a product to "decrease risk".

Because the clients legal team are about to offer you an inside IR35 contract, if pushed by HMRC I’m sure they would say they always considered you inside



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[Scoobos]

I'm intrigued by the follow up and backing - what gives you the impression I was in all along?

My impression is I am and will be deemed OUTSIDE, because I can't be anymore outside - and the agency is just trying to improve its revenue by selling QDOS assessments to clients.

The HMRC SDS States:
Off-payroll working rules (IR35) do not apply
Why you are getting this result
Your answers told us:
you have accepted, or would accept, a substitute
you do not have control over this work
This suggests the worker is working on a business to business basis


I also have multiple clients, worked from home before the pandemic , have no MOO - (this client cut me immediately on the lockdown, then re-engaged later on) - use my own kit. etc etc.

As outside as I've ever been.

But my post was trying to say, that I believe the actual agent is causing the problem and increasing the risk, by trying to sell a product to "decrease risk".

[GhostofTarbera]

Well, I've got a story from the other side.

Won a contract last year, where the client did their own IR35 submission and got a Statement of determination that I was outside (rightfully) - back in March last year. I was impressed that they were so on the ball and prepared.

Fast forward till now, and the client wants to renew for 12 months which is all great.

Then que the agency, who've just been jazzing up an "IR35 function", to "assist" end client co's, by essentially reselling them QDOS certifications (or whatever) and telling them they should review *cough pay* at least every 12 months, preferably six.

Yesterday, the CIO who was clambering for me to sign for a year - called me to say its until 2nd April now, until the company legal team can be comfortable with whats going on, but then "definately 12 months after that"

More so, it looks far more suspicious that , having an existing outside statement of determination - we reassess / reword contracts at precisely the time it comes into force.

Gah! - I could have betrayed them a month ago too, when the client wanted to go directly, but they "only" got 30 quid a day out of me and I get paid by a 3rd party 3 days after invoice, like clockwork.

Looks like you have been inside IR35 all along then


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[northernladuk]

You are so easy to bait.

I'm not the only one that thinks you are a twat when you spout crap.

[Scoobos]

Well, I've got a story from the other side.

Won a contract last year, where the client did their own IR35 submission and got a Statement of determination that I was outside (rightfully) - back in March last year. I was impressed that they were so on the ball and prepared.

Fast forward till now, and the client wants to renew for 12 months which is all great.

Then que the agency, who've just been jazzing up an "IR35 function", to "assist" end client co's, by essentially reselling them QDOS certifications (or whatever) and telling them they should review *cough pay* at least every 12 months, preferably six.

Yesterday, the CIO who was clambering for me to sign for a year - called me to say its until 2nd April now, until the company legal team can be comfortable with whats going on, but then "definately 12 months after that"

More so, it looks far more suspicious that , having an existing outside statement of determination - we reassess / reword contracts at precisely the time it comes into force.

Gah! - I could have betrayed them a month ago too, when the client wanted to go directly, but they "only" got 30 quid a day out of me and I get paid by a 3rd party 3 days after invoice, like clockwork.

[Fraidycat]

You are so easy to bait.

[northernladuk]

Some clients want to hire and retain top talent (like me ) and go that extra mile to offer outside working practices and contracts..

[Fraidycat]

Nope. For the duration of the contract, whatever it might be.
I actually never served bigger companies so regulation makes little difference to me.

Yeah same here, extended till august, outside as well.

Some clients want to hire and retain top talent (like me ) and go that extra mile to offer outside working practices and contracts.

Others just want bum on seat contractors, avoid these clients at all costs ( unless you are of-course just a bum on seat contractor, in which case you will fit right in. ).

[GitMaster69]

Outside until April and then Inside afterwards?

Nope. For the duration of the contract, whatever it might be.
I actually never served bigger companies so regulation makes little difference to me.

[NickFitz]

[ladymuck]

Outside contracting? Is that like a desk in the car park with an extension lead and a big coat on?

Filling in potholes for the council