Reply to: Contract to Permie

[DoctorStrangelove]

Even more inneresting is WTF the post came from in the first place since The End of General goes as far as 2007 and stops.

[GJABS]

What kind of eejit resurrects a 16 year old thread?

oh, of course, - that kind of eejit.

I'm making a note and will try to resurrect this thread again in 16 years time lol

[northernladuk]

Didn't know that. At the time of applying for the permie role I'd done a very long gig which was inside IR35 with everything going through PAYE. So things like the P60 definitely looked like I was a full time employee / well exceeding the NMW.

That's fair enough then. It's a common mistake we see on here where a contractor claims they are employed but they aren't.

[krytonsheep]

If you were employed and you were doing the low wage and divs you would have been paying yourself less than the NMW which is illegal.

Didn't know that. At the time of applying for the permie role I'd done a very long gig which was inside IR35 with everything going through PAYE. So things like the P60 definitely looked like I was a full time employee / well exceeding the NMW.

[northernladuk]

They then sent me the "Career Gap – Declaration of Fact" document that I signed and never heard from them again. Then shortly after started the permie job.

Not surprised you were getting pissed of with that chain..

Just a point or pedantry though..

I've never been self employed, VioletDwarf is limited company through which I have been employed as an employee ( paid through a payroll / PAYE etc).

If you are a normal contactor that wouldn't be true either would it?. We are directors which is a position. We aren't employed unless we have a full signed contract of employement. If you were employed and you were doing the low wage and divs you would have been paying yourself less than the NMW which is illegal.

[krytonsheep]

Gotta say wow to that. I don't doubt what you say but that's a pretty poor bit of background screening isn't it? I mean, that last line can't even be right can it? Self employed at a LTD?
.

I'd already been through the self employed thing with them, but I just could not be bothered to correct them again. I'd been offered the job before the screening had kicked off, so it was really a box ticking exercise.

For completeness this was the full exchange I had with the screening company over a period of 5 weeks! This was after completing a load of stuff on their online portal.

Them...

Thank you for submitting your consent forms to xxx. We are currently processing your background check on behalf of yyy and we require some missing information in order to complete your check.

Please provide us with the following:

Details of your accountant or solicitor for the self-employment at VioletDwarf Limited.
§ Confirmation if you had an accountant or solicitor whilst self-employed: Yes or No
§ Accountant Company:
§ Contact details of the accountant or solicitor:

In order to expedite your background screening, please send the required information by email to xxx as soon as possible to ensure there are no unnecessary delays in completing your background check.

Me...
> Confirmation if you had an accountant or solicitor whilst self-employed: No

I've never been self employed, VioletDwarf is limited company through which I have been employed as an employee ( paid through a payroll / PAYE etc).

I'm also the director at VioletDwarf Limited . I do all the company accounts ( PAYE, VAT, CT600 corporation tax, Balance sheets, PnL for HMRC / Companies house).

Them...
Hello KrytronSheep,

Thank you for your email.

We have updated your file with the provided information with regards to your self employment at VioletDwarf Limited.

However please could you confirm if VioletDwarf Limited was your own limited company.

Me...
Yes VioletDwarf limited is 100% owned by myself.

This is the incorporation document from companies house.
beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/...
..

Them...
Hello KrytronSheep,

We are still processing your background check on behalf of yyy and we require some documentation in order to complete your check.

We have been unable to obtain the required information for your period of self-employment as you did not use the service of an accountant or solicitors and require suitable documents to account for this period in your career history. In order for any documentation you provide to be acceptable, the document must show:

• Initial(s) and last name, OR
• Forename and last name, OR
• Forename, middle name and last name, OR
• Forename, middle initial and last name.

Please provide either one of the following documents that clearly shows both the start and end date; OR one document displaying your start date and one displaying the end date. The document(s) provided must clearly show start and end dates of your self- employment at VioletDwarf Limited:

·Invoices to Clients
·HMRC Documentation
·Company registration letter

In order to expedite your background screening, please provide the required information or document(s) using the contact information below

Me, getting pissed off...
Hi,

I am still in full time employment with VioletDwarf Limited, and will remain so until I have to start work at yyy, if I pass the background check. Therefore there is no end date on any documentation.

This is the information from Companies house showing I was a director from 200x

beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/...


Please note, VioletDwarf Limited is a Limited company. I have been a full time employee of VioletDwarf Limited. I have never been self-employed.

HMRC clearly distinguish between the two:

https://www.gov.uk/working-for-yourself

"Many of these also apply if you own a limited company but you’re not classed as self-employed by HMRC. Instead you’re both an owner and employee of your company."


Documents such as those requested below would never show a 'start date' or an 'end date' for any employee of a business.

• Invoices to Clients ( an invoice shows things like company address, bank details, payment terms, VAT registration number etc)
• Company registration letter ( this is just a document with the name and number of the company and where it was registered).

If required, I'm happy to Invoice xxx to give further training on accounting practices and records for Limited Companies.

Best regards,

KrytronSheep

Them...
Thank you for your response.

We have noted the below information however in order to proceed with the verification we would still require suitable documents to account for your time at VioletDwarf Limited as mentioned in the below trail email.

Me ...
I've attached a client invoice as request from VioletDwarf to one of our clients.

Regarding HMRC documentation, I already included a HMRC P60 form in the original online application clearly showing VioletDwarf as an employer, with myself as an employee. The P60 includes a unique employee PAYE reference (ERN) number that can be checked with HMRC.

They then sent me the "Career Gap – Declaration of Fact" document that I signed and never heard from them again. Then shortly after started the permie job.

[BR14]

What kind of eejit resurrects a 16 year old thread?

oh, of course, - that kind of eejit.

[DoctorStrangelove]

Then again, if the OP asked the question in 2005 it might be a little bit academic by now.

[northernladuk]

For my sins I did a brief permie stint in the finance industry. My CV did have various contracting gigs, but the background screening company weren't interesting in getting references from any gigs. They just wanted proof that I was working for my limited company.
They asked to see things like:
·Invoices to Clients
·HMRC Documentation
·Company registration letter

At the end of it they produced a single document with the title 'Career Gap – Declaration of Fact' which had
From 2005 to 2017 Krytonsheep is currently self employed at VioletDwarf Ltd.

Gotta say wow to that. I don't doubt what you say but that's a pretty poor bit of background screening isn't it? I mean, that last line can't even be right can it? Self employed at a LTD?

From this link https://www.rapidformations.co.uk/bl...-of-a-company/

Is a director self employed?

Company directors are not considered to be self-employed in relation to the companies in which they hold office as directors. Although they can be both directors and employees, it is not possible to be a director and also a self-employed contractor for the same company.

I'm guessing then the process is different for potential employees than contractors as we don't really have career gaps. If they were doing a security type risk asssessment where is the investigation in to time between gigs to check you aren't detained at her majestys pleasure or on an outward bound in the middle of Afghanistan? Where is the diligence on previous clients, time spent with them etc. The two finance clients I was at I had to explain all that, credit checks and give references for X years.

Very surprising but if that's normal then that helps the OP in his quest for CV doctoring. But that initself shows it's not a very good screening process as it does give him the option to doctor his CV.

Very interesting.

[krytonsheep]

More and more perm roles, not just in banking do some form of vetting so the chances of getting caught out are pretty good. What will you do with they ask for references for two years when you've got a doctored CV?

For my sins I did a brief permie stint in the finance industry. My CV did have various contracting gigs, but the background screening company weren't interesting in getting references from any gigs. They just wanted proof that I was working for my limited company.
They asked to see things like:
·Invoices to Clients
·HMRC Documentation
·Company registration letter

At the end of it they produced a single document with the title 'Career Gap – Declaration of Fact' which had
From 2005 to 2017 Krytonsheep is currently self employed at VioletDwarf Ltd.

[northernladuk]

Was this thread really originated on 26th May 2005?

Or is it merely Yet Another Bug in this POS?

Or there is a ban incoming and it hasn't registered yet?

EDIT : The OP isn't showing on the members list either so could be the latter.

[northernladuk]

One thing to try is to remove as many of the shorter duration roles from your CV as you can. eg. Anything less than six months.

And what does he put in it's place? I'd say multiple gaps of up to six months make him look crap so a much worse thing to do than leave them in. How do you account for those gap? Whatever answer you give will be a lie. Are you suggesting he extend the dates of other gigs to cover? Isn't that outright lying? If the employer is big enough they will be well aware contractors can be used for three months and let go.

I don't recommend outright lying or even stretching the truth (eg. stretching the start and end dates of old roles that they are unlikely to check up on), but many people do lie and they often get away with it. You would need to be aware of how rigorous the background check is for the role.

Isn't removing whole gigs to give incomplete and inaccurate representation lying or stretching the truth? I guess you could say it's not a lie technically but I can't imagine the employer will be very impressed that you've manipulated your CV to give a distorted view? That's a genuine question BTW. I don't personally think leaving things out to trick the client is a very clever thing to do but I could be wrong here so am asking.

If the roles are that old to not check up on then I doubt that role has much of an impact on the situation to be honest so buggering about with dates etc on those roles isn't really worth the risk IMO. Haven't we had instances were references for the last two years were required so still a long time.

[DoctorStrangelove]

Was this thread really originated on 26th May 2005?

Or is it merely Yet Another Bug in this POS?

[northernladuk]

What would you do if you wanted to apply for a permie role, but your CV looked like a contractors job hopping CV?

I know for sure agencies will rarely consider a contractor CV for a permie role.


What can one do to resolve this?

CV manipulation?

More and more perm roles, not just in banking do some form of vetting so the chances of getting caught out are pretty good. What will you do with they ask for references for two years when you've got a doctored CV? That said, there is a little manipulation that can be done but out right changing key facts like duration and dropping clients etc is a big fat no no.

It's highly likely your client is well aware of how contractors work and what a contractors CV looks like. In fact if you think contractors job hop then I'd bet the client has a better idea of what you do than you do. It's what we do, there is no hiding it. It's not as easy to go contractor to perm as they will eye you with suspicion as to why you are going perm. Looking around the forum in the last few months, the number of people quitting their perm jobs less than six months you could argue the employers are perfectly right to do so. It's just the way it is.
I don't think there is too much you can do to avoid this TBH. Most will just wonder why a contractor is going perm regardless of whether you have three, five, ten previous clients. It's what they expect to see. One thing that won't look too favourable is a number of short gigs all with a few months break inbetween. They'll immediately wonder why you were end to end.

I think your best bet is to manipulate your CV as you should be doing for every gig, bring out the skills in each role to suit the jobspec to prove that you are the person for the job and just stick it in and see. Have a good think about what to say when they ask you why you are leaving contracting through. That could be key. 'Because the contract market sucks and I can't find a gig' really isn't going to cut it. 'Because I've a family, can't travel and are looking for stability so I can grow and make a difference' is obviously better.

I wouldn't worry too much about the CV and concentrate on your answers for your interview.

[Fraidycat]

One thing to try is to remove as many of the shorter duration roles from your CV as you can. eg. Anything less than six months.

I don't recommend outright lying or even stretching the truth (eg. stretching the start and end dates of old roles that they are unlikely to check up on), but many people do lie and they often get away with it. You would need to be aware of how rigorous the background check is for the role.