Reply to: From Quasi-contract to Full Contract

[Gym beast]

Not sure that having 16 years freelance contracting work in senior roles up to Interim Head of IT means I'm not a true contractor and don't understand the economics of it all... Heigh ho

But that aside, nobody's trying to score points or belittle your efforts. The idea is to make sure you do actually know what you're getting in to and why it may not be the best idea you've ever had. If you don't want to listen, think that the advice given is either wrong or worthless* or believe that we are talking nonsense just for fun, then that's your decision.

*It isn't, of course, it's deadly serious. But where's the fun in that...

Good on you for 16 years contracting and not caving to the dark side.

In hindsight, I'll admit my failing, but my ONLY failing, is timing. Probably not the best idea to contract now, as I've got a nice chunk of holiday coming up early July I'd clean forgotten about, and won't jeopardise that. Also, I'm in no made rush to go back to work, with all these summer bugs going around (ahem) and paid sick leave as a bonus.

BUT...

I've never been one to get deterred unless the plan is clearly sh*t. I'm deadly serious that this WILL be the last permie job I ever have, unless Sandals Resorts needs me to head up their DB ops out of St Barts on a 200k USD pa salary!!. I'm also looking to phase out of IT altogether and get into trading.

One of the respondents mentioned, all that remains is to put the idea to the boss, and see what he has to say.

[warrenboon]

Hi all,

Currently in a "perm" role but with an onsite provider who has made no bones about us being laid off when their contract is up. However, THAT contract was recently renewed another 3 months, and needs SC (which I've got since working here). Headcount has recently been cut back to the bone, so the team's gone from about 10 guys to a hardcore of 4, one of whom just resigned his (actual) contract.

As I'm SC, what do you reckon the chances are of going contract with rates to match? Best way to do it I guess is to chat about resignation, got the war chest up to a good year and a half plus change if hits the fan.

Ta,

GB

If what you're trying to achieve here is more money for the same work, wouldn't the logical action be to ask for a pay rise? If they won't pay you more as a permanent employee, I wouldn't imagine they would pay you more as a contractor either...

[malvolio]

Not sure that having 16 years freelance contracting work in senior roles up to Interim Head of IT means I'm not a true contractor and don't understand the economics of it all... Heigh ho

But that aside, nobody's trying to score points or belittle your efforts. The idea is to make sure you do actually know what you're getting in to and why it may not be the best idea you've ever had. If you don't want to listen, think that the advice given is either wrong or worthless* or believe that we are talking nonsense just for fun, then that's your decision.





*It isn't, of course, it's deadly serious. But where's the fun in that...

[northernladuk]

A true contractor would appreciate me striking a blow against underpayment.

You are being paid your worth to your company as you have a raft of benefits that a contractor does not. We are not over paid for no reason whatsoever. We take risk, run our own affairs, have no benefits. A true contractor knows that only a true permie earns a wage and then sits there and moans about how little he is underpaid.[/quote]

I get the distinct feeling my 'contractor' mettle is being tested here.... what's next, someone tells me, "It's been decided. You're just not cut out for this game", and expects me to stagger back to Permie-la-land, tail tucked and teary-eyed?

They don't need to tell you that... bearing in mind you have already done a couple of contracts and now you are permie I would say you are already there.

[TheFaQQer]

A true contractor would appreciate me striking a blow against underpayment.

Bollocks. A true contractor understands the difference between contracting and working for the same employer in the manner which led to the introduction of IR35 in the first place. Working for the same company as a disguised permie isn't contracting, as some true contractor have already tried to explain here.

I get the distinct feeling my 'contractor' mettle is being tested here.... what's next, someone tells me, "It's been decided. You're just not cut out for this game", and expects me to stagger back to Permie-la-land, tail tucked and teary-eyed?

I can't imagine that anyone here really gives a wet fart whether you move into contracting or not. However, there are some very good points in this thread which you should consider. For example, Mal has already given you some ideas on rate suggestions, and what many clients would respond. You have been given the best advice on whether to form a company or go umbrella you are likely to get round here.

It's not about testing your mettle by any means - sometimes people need a good smack to wake them up to the realities of this world. You don't have to listen to anything anyone says - it looks like you've already decided what you want to do, and will do it anyway.

Hate to break it to you all, but I was a contractor several times before the crisis.

Really? How did that work - being a contractor several times? Do you just mean that you did some contract work and then scurried back to the safety of a permie role, tail tucked and teary-eyed when that role finished? Hate to break it to you, but that isn't being "a contractor several times".

[Gym beast]

I am. It's being expected to pay more money to people for doing the job they're already doing perfectly well, making me spend my time and money sorting out the changes and not getting anything in return at the end of it all .I'd probably accept your notice and then not go ahead with the contract; but then I'm a mean bugger.

A true contractor would appreciate me striking a blow against underpayment.

I get the distinct feeling my 'contractor' mettle is being tested here.... what's next, someone tells me, "It's been decided. You're just not cut out for this game", and expects me to stagger back to Permie-la-land, tail tucked and teary-eyed?



Hate to break it to you all, but I was a contractor several times before the crisis.

(just a hint...unless you're about to jump off a diving board, don't hold your breath).

[cojak]

I am. It's being expected to pay more money to people for doing the job they're already doing perfectly well, making me spend my time and money sorting out the changes and not getting anything in return at the end of it all .I'd probably accept your notice and then not go ahead with the contract; but then I'm a mean bugger.

I must say that I'm leaning towards SE and Mal on this one...

[malvolio]

I'm not aware of a BAD reason for wanting more money,

I am. It's being expected to pay more money to people for doing the job they're already doing perfectly well, making me spend my time and money sorting out the changes and not getting anything in return at the end of it all .I'd probably accept your notice and then not go ahead with the contract; but then I'm a mean bugger.

[Gym beast]

I'm not aware of a BAD reason for wanting more money, unless your name is Bill Gates/Warren Buffet/Dalai Lama etc. But your earlier point is valid, they may call my bluff and just say, "ok, walk". But that's why I'm here; I want to ask those in the know before I go into battle.

Aren't we missing a point here. The key party in the arrangement is his employer... Has anyone even bothered to ask them if they may entertain this option. Bearing in mind one contractor has gone they are not exactly going to be jumping at the chance to make a permie a contractor.

I wouldn't be surprised if they pull their own handcuff as an excuse not to do this.

There is then the PSL. If he isn't on it he won't be able to go direct. He would have to go through an agent so taking a free cut of his mullah....

If the company gives in and lets him they have opened to door to everyone else bitching and moaning and wanting the same..

Also, even if the contract with your client ends you are still going to get paid aren't you? You are in employment so will have to bench it or they find you more work?

I hate this I want more money for no reason so I will be a contractor and do the same job situation. If you want good money, leave, take the risks and become a contractor. Typical permie attitude this.

[SueEllen]

LOL... You are a tough woman SueEllen... and I love it!

If people are determined not to listen and can't be bothered to do their research the only way they can be taught is the hard way.

[northernladuk]

To be fair we should just encourage the poster to go for it.

A few months unemployed will teach him a hard lesson.

LOL... You are a tough woman SueEllen... and I love it!

[SueEllen]

To be fair we should just encourage the poster to go for it.

A few months unemployed will teach him a hard lesson.

[northernladuk]

Aren't we missing a point here. The key party in the arrangement is his employer... Has anyone even bothered to ask them if they may entertain this option. Bearing in mind one contractor has gone they are not exactly going to be jumping at the chance to make a permie a contractor.

I wouldn't be surprised if they pull their own handcuff as an excuse not to do this.

There is then the PSL. If he isn't on it he won't be able to go direct. He would have to go through an agent so taking a free cut of his mullah....

If the company gives in and lets him they have opened to door to everyone else bitching and moaning and wanting the same..

Also, even if the contract with your client ends you are still going to get paid aren't you? You are in employment so will have to bench it or they find you more work?

I hate this I want more money for no reason so I will be a contractor and do the same job situation. If you want good money, leave, take the risks and become a contractor. Typical permie attitude this.

[malvolio]

I just want to spend my last few months in it better compensated than before. What I'm asking is, what do I need to know to open and pursue negotiations.

Cheers,

GB.

More than you can imagine...

Pitch for a rate equivalent to your gross salary/1000 per hour - £40k salary means £40 an hour or £320 a day. Sounds a fortune, but it will just about keep you on the same net. You probably won't get it as a standard DBA anyway - your employer is more likely to want to offer no more than the equivalent of your gross plus 13.8% for NICs and 10% for admin if you're lucky - but if you don't ask...

If you go direct, you'll be waiting two months before you get paid and you'll have to sort out your own contracts, so go umbrella. You're IR35 caught anyway so don't even think about a Ltd Co for a few months' work. You won't be able to claim expenses

Then get reading. There's a decent guide over there-->, there's the "all you ever need to know" Guide to Freelancing at www.pcg.org.uk and have a read of some of the bigger accountancy websites like SJD and Nixon Williams as well. Then you will have an idea of what you're getting into.

Then you can ask intelligent questions. "Tell me everything I don't know" is not an intelligent question.

HTH

[Gym beast]

You mean go contracting with your existing employer or to go contracting with the client?

I worked with a large IT outsourcer as a perm and they had some very strict handcuffs in the contract about going direct to clients and each client contract had a no poaching clause so was extremely difficult to go direct with client.

If you are talking about resigning from your current post to come straight back as a contractor the you will be a Friday to Monday contractor which is exactly what IR35 exists for. Even if you did get a good rate I can't think for one minute it will make up for the lack of security you now have. If that team of 4 needs to go down to 3 you will be the first one in line. Kick you out zero notice, no redundancy nothing. You would be playing in to their hands. Just to note you would be a disguised permie with a different remuneration method, NOT a contractor.

If you are going to go contracting go do it properly.

Yes, I'm talking about turning up at the same end client's site (X), for my existing employer (Y), but instead as a contractor to Y.

Just to clarify, the contract between X and Y has been extended until September, and I have it on good authority that the contract stipulates that they have 4 of us in here (in fact, one of us just left, as above).

Perm 1 - DB (me)
Perm 2 - NW/Wintel
Perm 3 - Wintel/DB
Contractor 1 - NW

Now, Contractor 1 has packed it in, so we are left with a busy old environment coming up. Comprende about the lack of notice BUT I'm only on a month anyway, and not due any redundancy, plus I'm not fussed if they do P45 me as I have other plans post-IT.

I just want to spend my last few months in it better compensated than before. What I'm asking is, what do I need to know to open and pursue negotiations.

Cheers,

GB.