Reply to: Computer science graduates struggle to secure their first jobs

[NotAllThere]

'i'm not elitist, - but..........'

I am elitist. I'm better than everyone else. It's a cross to bear, because it's hard to be humble when you're better in every way.

How much relevance do you reckon a 40-year old computer science degree has, anyway?

None at all. But it gets your foot into the door (or at least it used to) at a higher starting level. And the fact of having a degree means your more attractive to some employers. The fact is, if you have a bachelors you'll be on a lower starting salary than someone with a masters.

Last time I was recruiting I was quite happy to take on a guy who didn't have a degree but had the experience. Even got him a work permit when strictly, without a degree, it shouldn't have been possible.

[mogga71]

I actually got a job as a temp doing DBaseII programming work a day after I graduated in Computer Science in 1989... I think mainly because the lady in charge of the section in the Bank fancied me. Money was rubbish but it was a start. A few months later I got a permie gig in Cheshire before starting contracting in 1994 .... those were the days....a million miles away from recruitment these days.

I have been incredibly lucky as I am now an old git (nobody fancies me any more) but somehow have managed to stay contracting for the last 30 odd years with only about 9 months out all in all. Still WFH for a major Bank. Strange times, in the last 10 years I have made about 3 times as much money in investing in America technology stocks than I have from actual work .... just jammy I suppose.

I deffo, 100% would not advise anybody to do a straight Computer Degree now ..... in fact I would recommend doing a subject as far away from computers as possible.

[sadkingbilly]

worked for 8 banks, some several times.
still no degree.

[willendure]

But this is a contractor's forum, is it not? This brings me to the question:
As contractors, have any of your end clients required a degree?

Required no. But in 2019 I worked for a bank, and not long after starting the contract the boss mentioned my degree from a top university as a reason why he expected me to be able to figure out a tough problem for them - so he definitely clocked that on my CV, and probably a reason I got to interview stage. Grduated in 97, so thats 22 years later.

[Smartie]

But this is a contractor's forum, is it not? This brings me to the question:
As contractors, have any of your end clients required a degree?

I don't recall that happening, but then how many of use went straight into contracting without any experience/straight out of college?
If you happened to have worked at a top consultancy because of your 1st/2:1 degree and that was on your CV, I imagine clients might notice it :-)

[sadkingbilly]

But this is a contractor's forum, is it not? This brings me to the question:
As contractors, have any of your end clients required a degree?

Not in <> 45 years, no , nor have any of the permie offers I've refused through the ages even mentioned it.

[Dorkeaux]

Few issues/errors here IMO.

Well, I did say "I would argue that..". I'm not presenting these observations as empirical facts.

A degree course isn't an outlay of 4 years of youth. It takes up part of your time, but adds a whole variety of valuable life skills/experience. Meeting people from widely different backgrounds, often for the first time ever. Exposure to a wide variety of activities via clubs etc. Exposure/experience of different city such as London which might be very helpful when finding work for the first time.

While not all courses might be cutting edge (though it's possible), they often provide foundational skills that support a wide variety of different roles. They also provide the opportunity to sample different areas and understand where your abilities/interests may lie (no to low level programming, yes to business/systems analysis SSADM).
If you choose carefully, you may well get access to leading experts in cutting edge fields.

Yes, of course.
I didn't mean to imply that it was a wasted four years. Only that as applied practitioners of computer science the value of curriculum-based education like a CS degree diminishes rapidly with time, taken by itself.

And sure, it helps you find yourself and what you are good at. For me passing the college entrance tests was a revelation. But that was a very long time ago. I think the effort I've put in since then, the education and skills I've obtained since vastly outweigh the influence of my early education.

It doesn't matter much that the specific curriculum of a degree course becomes less relevant over time. After your first job or two, it's done it's job.
It also doesn't preclude learning 'on the job' afterwards - it's additional.

That's what I've been trying to say.

What it does demonstrate is the ability to apply yourself to learning (or anything) for a significant period of time.
Many employers value a degree highly and many roles are simply not available without one.

Yes, most permie employers require a degree.

But this is a contractor's forum, is it not? This brings me to the question:
As contractors, have any of your end clients required a degree?

[Smartie]

I don't denigrate education at all, including university degrees.
And I appreciate the frankness of your views in this post, though I agree with very little of it.

Certainly it represents a significant outlay, in cash as well as 4 years (or so) of your youth. So I can see why you would very much want it to be valuable.

I would argue that in our field (unless you are working on quantum computing theory and the like):
1) The advances are driven and made by industry rather than acadaemia.
2) The half-life of specific knowledge in compouter science has a very short shelf life. Much of the practicalities of applied computer science taught in unis is either out of date when it is taught, or soon afterwards.
3) Education is of critical importance, but the most useful in obtained as-required, rather than through a set curiculum. I study all the time, continuously. I have to, otherwise I'd still be doing mainframe work.
4) The relevance of a curriculum-based education diminishes over time, probably something like the inverse square law.

How much relevance do you reckon a 40-year old computer science degree has, anyway?

Few issues/errors here IMO.

A degree course isn't an outlay of 4 years of youth. It takes up part of your time, but adds a whole variety of valuable life skills/experience. Meeting people from widely different backgrounds, often for the first time ever. Exposure to a wide variety of activities via clubs etc. Exposure/experience of different city such as London which might be very helpful when finding work for the first time.

While not all courses might be cutting edge (though it's possible), they often provide foundational skills that support a wide variety of different roles. They also provide the opportunity to sample different areas and understand where your abilities/interests may lie (no to low level programming, yes to business/systems analysis SSADM).
If you choose carefully, you may well get access to leading experts in cutting edge fields.

It's a mistake to think that most industry is more advanced than academia, generally. Many companies are well behind the times in IT use and I've added value to a number of companies using degree related training.

It doesn't matter much that the specific curriculum of a degree course becomes less relevant over time. After your first job or two, it's done it's job.
It also doesn't preclude learning 'on the job' afterwards - it's additional.

What it does demonstrate is the ability to apply yourself to learning (or anything) for a significant period of time.
Many employers value a degree highly and many roles are simply not available without one.

[willendure]

Certainly it represents a significant outlay, in cash as well as 4 years (or so) of your youth. So I can see why you would very much want it to be valuable.

How much relevance do you reckon a 40-year old computer science degree has, anyway?

Thats my point - valuable does not just mean in monetary terms. There are many more forms of value in the world than money. To be educated is to develop your own mind, and what are we if not our minds? That is a form of capital that cannot be taken from you, and does not lose its value.

My CS degree is only 31 years old. I still feel it gives me a lot of advantage. My AI masters is 28 years old, and just starting to mature into something valuable!

[hobnob]

How much relevance do you reckon a 40-year old computer science degree has, anyway?

I think that does very much depend on what you're doing, but a lot of the principles would still be applicable.

E.g. the concepts of algorithmic time complexity are still valid for programming (regardless of language), because you can predict how long it will take the program/script to run. Likewise, if you're working with wireless networks then the concept of a Fresnel zone is still important, and that was discovered by Monsieur Fresnel (hence the name) about 200 years ago.

As a more general point, I think it's worth asking:
* What would I learn from this degree?
* Is this knowledge going to be useful?
* Is there a better way to learn it?

I don't think there's anything that can only be learnt at university (e.g. anyone can buy the textbooks from the recommended reading list or do a Udemy course). However, being able to ask questions when your professor literally wrote a book on the subject is a great opportunity.

In terms of cost, it's also worth comparing a university degree to a conference or a training course. E.g. if you want to go to the WLPC (for Wireless LAN Professionals) in Prague, it costs €2600 for 2 days (inc. the hotel room) or €5600 if you want the "boot camp" too:
The WLPC
Likewise, vocational exams cost a few hundred quid each. Compared to that, £9,535 for 1 year of tuition fees (inc. exams) doesn't sound so bad!

[oliverson]

Interesting that those denigrating the value of education are generally those that do not have it.

Yes, there is unfairness in that coming from a wealthier family makes it easier to access education. But I do not look down on those without it. Some of my best friends at uni, and amongst the smartest and most dedicated were those from less advantaged backgrounds. I also know plenty people of more advantaged backgrounds than myself who neglected their education and are worse off for it.

Also there is a lot more to being educated that what you directly get out of it, in terms of employment. The education itself is of great personal value. I still worked hard to get an education despite having some advantages in the first place. I still work hard at it now, and I read many non-fiction and technical books every year, and watch discussions and interviews with smart people just about every day.

Education helps you make sense of yourself, your life and the world around you. Sometimes people that denigrate education need to be reminded of this. I am proud to be educated, and I know that it is something that I worked to obtain. Sacrifices were made to obtain it too on the part of my parents and I will ever be grateful for it - my education is really the only thing they ever bought for me.

I don't look down on those without education, but I do know that in some sense you are less than me for what you did not make a commitment to. In the same way that I would say most people are less good at playing the piano than I am, because they did not sit there and practice for X thousand hours like I did. I have something that most people do not and cannot be taken away from me, except perhaps by old age and senility.

I wouldn't say I was from a disadvantaged background, just a very working class northern one with father a builder and mother a machinist/cafeteria worker. I was the first member of our entire family tree to go to University and I gained a 1st in Computer Science. I was rejected from one major University because they felt that having just an O level in maths, my maths wouldn't be strong enough. At other University I scored 96% in Maths. Just goes to show. It actually worked out better because the course I studied had a year out in industry, whereas the other didn't. Priceless.

I fully agree with the 'Education helps you make sense of yourself...' bit, hard work and constantly learning/reinventing yourself.

[sadkingbilly]

I study all the time, continuously. I have to, otherwise I'd still be doing mainframe work.

KerCHINGGGG!

[Dorkeaux]

Interesting that those denigrating the value of education are generally those that do not have it.

Yes, there is unfairness in that coming from a wealthier family makes it easier to access education. But I do not look down on those without it. Some of my best friends at uni, and amongst the smartest and most dedicated were those from less advantaged backgrounds. I also know plenty people of more advantaged backgrounds than myself who neglected their education and are worse off for it.

Also there is a lot more to being educated that what you directly get out of it, in terms of employment. The education itself is of great personal value. I still worked hard to get an education despite having some advantages in the first place. I still work hard at it now, and I read many non-fiction and technical books every year, and watch discussions and interviews with smart people just about every day.

Education helps you make sense of yourself, your life and the world around you. Sometimes people that denigrate education need to be reminded of this. I am proud to be educated, and I know that it is something that I worked to obtain. Sacrifices were made to obtain it too on the part of my parents and I will ever be grateful for it - my education is really the only thing they ever bought for me.

I don't look down on those without education, but I do know that in some sense you are less than me for what you did not make a commitment to. In the same way that I would say most people are less good at playing the piano than I am, because they did not sit there and practice for X thousand hours like I did. I have something that most people do not and cannot be taken away from me, except perhaps by old age and senility.

I don't denigrate education at all, including university degrees.
And I appreciate the frankness of your views in this post, though I agree with very little of it.

Certainly it represents a significant outlay, in cash as well as 4 years (or so) of your youth. So I can see why you would very much want it to be valuable.

I would argue that in our field (unless you are working on quantum computing theory and the like):
1) The advances are driven and made by industry rather than acadaemia.
2) The half-life of specific knowledge in compouter science has a very short shelf life. Much of the practicalities of applied computer science taught in unis is either out of date when it is taught, or soon afterwards.
3) Education is of critical importance, but the most useful in obtained as-required, rather than through a set curiculum. I study all the time, continuously. I have to, otherwise I'd still be doing mainframe work.
4) The relevance of a curriculum-based education diminishes over time, probably something like the inverse square law.

How much relevance do you reckon a 40-year old computer science degree has, anyway?

[sadkingbilly]

'i'm not elitist, - but..........'

[willendure]

Interesting that those denigrating the value of education are generally those that do not have it.

Yes, there is unfairness in that coming from a wealthier family makes it easier to access education. But I do not look down on those without it. Some of my best friends at uni, and amongst the smartest and most dedicated were those from less advantaged backgrounds. I also know plenty people of more advantaged backgrounds than myself who neglected their education and are worse off for it.

Also there is a lot more to being educated that what you directly get out of it, in terms of employment. The education itself is of great personal value. I still worked hard to get an education despite having some advantages in the first place. I still work hard at it now, and I read many non-fiction and technical books every year, and watch discussions and interviews with smart people just about every day.

Education helps you make sense of yourself, your life and the world around you. Sometimes people that denigrate education need to be reminded of this. I am proud to be educated, and I know that it is something that I worked to obtain. Sacrifices were made to obtain it too on the part of my parents and I will ever be grateful for it - my education is really the only thing they ever bought for me.

I don't look down on those without education, but I do know that in some sense you are less than me for what you did not make a commitment to. In the same way that I would say most people are less good at playing the piano than I am, because they did not sit there and practice for X thousand hours like I did. I have something that most people do not and cannot be taken away from me, except perhaps by old age and senility.