Reply to: Permie Hijacking My Deliverables

[northernladuk]

Sorry, I’ve no idea what you’re trying to say but I wasn’t responding to your post.

Sorry bit of a chain. Boredom was pulling me up because I said FTC isn't a perm, its a contractor for all intents and purposes. Boredom pointed out they have all the benefits of a perm which is right but the OP is struggling with the interaction with this person so I'd say consider him as a contractor in this situation. Never mind.

[sreed]

But it's the same contractor body filling the spot which was the whole point of my comment. Forget how the person is employed, the OP is having personal issues and their employment menthod doesn't make a difference. They are a contractor and will have a contractor mindset which alters the way the OP will engage with them.

Exactly my point.

Sorry, I’ve no idea what you’re trying to say but I wasn’t responding to your post.

[northernladuk]

Agreed, this is indeed the case at my client, where they’re doing away with most day-rate contractors and replacing them with FTC contracts (and extending it a few months at a time) which come with almost exactly the same rights/obligations as a permie, except that there’s an end date.

But it's the same contractor body filling the spot which was the whole point of my comment. Forget how the person is employed, the OP is having personal issues and their employment menthod doesn't make a difference. They are a contractor and will have a contractor mindset which alters the way the OP will engage with them.

I started off on a day rate contract and then had to choose between parting ways or transferring to an FTC, though in my case, as part of the transition they were generous enough to translate the pay as is to a PAYE rate and take it to the end of the year so works out alright for me. But I fully expect that my FTC won’t be extended any further.

Exactly my point.

[cojak]

That's correct. The PM is on the above, not through an umbrella but a genuine long term fixed term with benefits, holiday, sick pay etc.

This precisely.

Are you running both accounts OP? You’d better be more careful than that…

[Willy Win]

That's correct. The PM is on the above, not through an umbrella but a genuine long term fixed term with benefits, holiday, sick pay etc.

This precisely.

[ziggystardust]

Not necessarily. it might be one of those stupid permie roles that only last x months, where holidays, sick pay etc are part of the 'package' on offer. Generally they pay around the same as a permie, but are only very short term (covering maternity or whatever), you're hired directly with no umbrella, and the customer is responsible for taxes etc. That could also be why they are talking about annual leave - if they're not aware you're an outside IR35 'real' contractor.

That's correct. The PM is on the above, not through an umbrella but a genuine long term fixed term with benefits, holiday, sick pay etc.

[sreed]

How were you paid as an FTC?

I was with an employment agency company that paid 1 month arrears. I hated it when I did in Covid times, March 2020 to February 2021. The bank would pay the agency at the end of the month and then agency would pay FTC worker. I knew contracting as Outside IR35 was finished.

Exactly the same as a permie, monthly payroll direct from the 'client' (or employer to be precise!)

[rocktronAMP]

Agreed, this is indeed the case at my client, where they’re doing away with most day-rate contractors and replacing them with FTC contracts (and extending it a few months at a time) which come with almost exactly the same rights/obligations as a permie, except that there’s an end date.

I started off on a day rate contract and then had to choose between parting ways or transferring to an FTC, though in my case, as part of the transition they were generous enough to translate the pay as is to a PAYE rate and take it to the end of the year so works out alright for me. But I fully expect that my FTC won’t be extended any further.

How were you paid as an FTC?

I was with an employment agency company that paid 1 month arrears. I hated it when I did in Covid times, March 2020 to February 2021. The bank would pay the agency at the end of the month and then agency would pay FTC worker. I knew contracting as Outside IR35 was finished.

[sreed]

Having recently started an outside IR35 contract, for which the client had stated clear deliverables, I had my contract assessed by Qdos and was all deemed good to go. I knew at the time that a couple of the deliverables were not within the scope of my skills and experience but, having a limited warchest I couldn't afford to turn down the opportunity so I said they were all fine and within my capabilities.

It's week one and on the first day the client contact who brought me in introduced me to the permie PM (as good as, being on a fixed term agreement) who I would be working with in a consultative support mode. Having more industry specific subject matter experience he has taken over delivering some of the deliverables with myself as support and now I am seriously worried that this could put me inside IR35.

Could this put me at risk? Not only that, could the client head refuse to pay me on the basis that I'm not taking a lead on some of the deliverables? Permie's objectives also appear to be the same as mine as he is says there is alot of overlap. Strangely he made reference to the needs of the project and in his words "when you need to request annual leave." He is also not being free with sharing information e.g contact names, including me in emails etc to enable me to do what I need to, stating that he will manage . How do I deal with this?

I wouldn’t worry about the IR35 bit myself, but if it worries you then follow whatever other posters have said on this matter.

Re the pay, assuming you’re on a ‘normal’ outside contract on a day-rate, I don’t see how the client could refuse to pay you for the days worked. Any sign of hemming and hawing over pay for days worked and I’d be off in a flash.

Re the difficult PM, my suggestion would be to give yourself (and them) a few weeks to bed in, get the lay of the land and see how things go before deciding that they’re going to be a problem. They might not even know (or care) about outside/inside etc.

[sreed]

Not necessarily. it might be one of those stupid permie roles that only last x months, where holidays, sick pay etc are part of the 'package' on offer. Generally they pay around the same as a permie, but are only very short term (covering maternity or whatever), you're hired directly with no umbrella, and the customer is responsible for taxes etc. That could also be why the are talking about annual leave - if they're not aware you're an outside IR35 'real' contractor.

Agree with most of the rest though.

Agreed, this is indeed the case at my client, where they’re doing away with most day-rate contractors and replacing them with FTC contracts (and extending it a few months at a time) which come with almost exactly the same rights/obligations as a permie, except that there’s an end date.

I started off on a day rate contract and then had to choose between parting ways or transferring to an FTC, though in my case, as part of the transition they were generous enough to translate the pay as is to a PAYE rate and take it to the end of the year so works out alright for me. But I fully expect that my FTC won’t be extended any further.

[escapeUK]

Like many contracts, delivering is important but the relationships with the people are often more important. Nothing that you said makes me worry about IR35 for you, forget about that.

Since you say some of the requirements are outside your skills, it seems ideal that you are sharing with this guy. Assuming he complements your skills. Maybe you can learn something from him?

Be friendly. Be helpful. Smile. Make a coffee. Relax. You got this.

Cojak gave you some great advice about recording connections in the business. Make sure you have good relationships with the senior people, the decision makers in the business (but be nice to everyone). Don't be like a permie who stops talking when the boss walks in and looks down at their work. That's not who you are. (They hate that btw.)

If all this seems like hard work, or you don't know where to start. Get yourself the book how to win friends and influence people. Its old, but people haven't changed since it was written.

[northernladuk]

Not necessarily. it might be one of those stupid permie roles that only last x months, where holidays, sick pay etc are part of the 'package' on offer. Generally they pay around the same as a permie, but are only very short term (covering maternity or whatever), you're hired directly with no umbrella, and the customer is responsible for taxes etc. That could also be why the are talking about annual leave - if they're not aware you're an outside IR35 'real' contractor.

Agree with most of the rest though.

Cant argue with that TBH. To be fair though the point I was trying to make was that person might have a different mindset to a permie. Most of the FTE's I've worked with had. They don't have the full permie mentality which affects how they work. They maybe more inclined to try protect their role, might not be on the clients side etc if you get me.

[Protagoras]

Not necessarily. it might be one of those stupid permie roles that only last x months, where holidays, sick pay etc are part of the 'package' on offer. Generally they pay around the same as a permie, but are only very short term (covering maternity or whatever), you're hired directly with no umbrella, and the customer is responsible for taxes etc. That could also be why the are talking about annual leave - if they're not aware you're an outside IR35 'real' contractor.

+1
I worked a while back as a fixed term employee. The employment documentation, leave, pension, sick pay and access to some statutory powers that came with the role were exactly the same as other employees. The only difference was an expected end date to the employment.

In my view, a 'contractor' takes supplier risk, so that I'd not describe a fixed term permie, or any non-off-payroll worker (including an umbrella company 'employee') as a 'contractor'.

My advice to OP. Concentrate on the work and building the necessary relationships. As a Contractor you need to be productive asap and then become invaluable so that you have more opportunities with the client for future work.

[b0redom]

.

Fixed term is still a contractor. It might be similar but it's not helpful using the term 'as good as'. It's key you get the terms right. We've a post going on where someone is discussing and inside gig which has SoW and because that person is talking about it being psuedo permie which is wholly wrong and that thinking is tripping them up.

You also mention requesting annual leave. Nothing wrong with a project tracking and managing leave.

Not necessarily. it might be one of those stupid permie roles that only last x months, where holidays, sick pay etc are part of the 'package' on offer. Generally they pay around the same as a permie, but are only very short term (covering maternity or whatever), you're hired directly with no umbrella, and the customer is responsible for taxes etc. That could also be why the are talking about annual leave - if they're not aware you're an outside IR35 'real' contractor.

Agree with most of the rest though.

[cojak]

Get a list of everyone involved and set meetings up for general chats and intros and tease all this info out. Don't wait for one person to guide you. You'll get what you need and more that way and then when you've been there a couple of weeks you'll have a better idea how to deal with the PM.

This. My very first task would be to fire up Excel and start compiling a relationship management file with people I met the first week. Who they were, what they did and their specialism. That sheet would stand me in good stead for the rest of the project.

The most important thing is don’t set up this PM as a problem so early in the contract. You don’t know enough to make that decision yet - your insecurity is showing.