Reply to: Two contracts concurrently ?

[NotAllThere]

And closed.

[edison]

I'm a generalist tech PM so can kind of see where you're coming from.

I've done 2 outside PM contracts concurrently, BUT both were variable billing every week. Doesn't mean that the days billed added up to 5, it was between 5-8 depending on the hours I put in, what I delivered, etc. Both were fully remote with occasional travel. As it was a variable billing contract, both clients were aware that I wasn't 'exclusive' to them.

I've done one full-time inside and a variable-billing outside contract concurrently, first one hybrid and the second remote. The second client was aware that I am doing other stuff, the first client wasn't. But the inside contract always took priority as that was more 9-5.

Concurrent to all of the above, I also do fixed-price consulting gigs for past clients that I know very well, fully remote, no fixed hours, billing based on stage-wise deliverables written into the contract.

Personally, for a PM kind of role I wouldn't do two inside 9-5 full-time contracts concurrently as I wouldn't be able to manage it on an ongoing basis and I can't imagine either client would be happy if they knew.

I've done similar in two concurrent advisory roles, both outside with SOWs and both clients knew about each other. The most I would bill in a week was six days. If someone is going to do 10 days worth of work a week, every week, then I would hazard a guess the clients perhaps don't have a good handle on the scope, deliverables and outcomes.

I personally found it mentally tiring switching between clients during the week. My ideal work pattern would be two clients for two days a week and a day for myself to do other projects and things of interest!

[JustKeepSwimming]

Assuming they are getting paid for 8hrs a day, two jobs a day are still doable without one affecting the other.

My contracts always state 'professional working day' and doesn't define it, presumably some bright spark thought if they did then it would raise the risk of triggering the overtime provisions. They can't have their cake and eat it too.

[dsc]

Further to what NLUK said, if you tell your client you're completing your work quickly and therefore are going to take another job to keep yourself occupied then they're well within their rights to trim your pay to the hours worked and then this fabled grand a day isn't going to materialise. If you don't tell them and they subsequently find out then at best you get sacked and at worst they sue you to recover pay for hours not worked.

No-one says it can't be done. It just needs to be done in the right way.

Assuming they are getting paid for 8hrs a day, two jobs a day are still doable without one affecting the other.

[sadkingbilly]

more endless bull over another greedy git

[JustKeepSwimming]

Further to what NLUK said, if you tell your client you're completing your work quickly and therefore are going to take another job to keep yourself occupied then they're well within their rights to trim your pay to the hours worked and then this fabled grand a day isn't going to materialise. If you don't tell them and they subsequently find out then at best you get sacked and at worst they sue you to recover pay for hours not worked.

No-one says it can't be done. It just needs to be done in the right way.

No chance they would get sued unless it was public sector, who have been known to go criminal rather than civil.

£500/d is £10k a month. That's instantly no longer small claims, so hefty legal costs.

Then add they would need to prove numerous aspects which IME companies cant do. Ive never seen a timessheet system that was used for productivity checking, only financial reporting.

All it would take is an absence of any documentation about performance concerns and there goes any basis for losses. Contract extension? Boom claim dead in the water.

The real crux of this question comes down to whether you think it's immoral or not, which is a personal determination.

[ladymuck]

Further to what NLUK said, if you tell your client you're completing your work quickly and therefore are going to take another job to keep yourself occupied then they're well within their rights to trim your pay to the hours worked and then this fabled grand a day isn't going to materialise. If you don't tell them and they subsequently find out then at best you get sacked and at worst they sue you to recover pay for hours not worked.

No-one says it can't be done. It just needs to be done in the right way.

[JustKeepSwimming]

me no burn de high grade weed man

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/nMBml1iNvtk

Got ourself a millennial calling £500/d 'rubbish'. We should send him down the mines and teach him a lesson.

[barely_pointless]

What advice you after? Just do it.


(As an aside, what you smoking? 2 PMO contracts 95% remote and totalling £1000/d meaning at least one is £500+ is not rubbish).

me no burn de high grade weed man

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/nMBml1iNvtk

[JustKeepSwimming]

What advice you after? Just do it.

An umbrella isn't going to care or grass you up, but use different ones if you must.

Have a primary contract, the most valuable one, or the one you want to put on your CV.

The second contract is the one that takes all the hits if there are clashes.

Delete LinkedIn.

Tell no one.

(As an aside, what you smoking? 2 PMO contracts 95% remote and totalling £1000/d meaning at least one is £500+ is not rubbish).

[sreed]

Market a little - well you know what I mean, but currently running a contract agile (set my own schedule etc) 100% remote with occasional journeys into office, day rate inside pretty rubbish, but still a lot better than bench.

2nd contract rate even more rubbish, but also inside, and also ability to set own schedule - ie. day standup 15 min after the one above ?

Both JIRA junkie roles if you get what I mean - including facilitation etc set own schedule, both remote, aside from a day a month on-site.

has anyone run two contracts concurrently remote ? inside day rates accumulate to over 1k, both look fairly do-able from an execution POV, only fly in ointment is the PMO justifying their existence - was it ever thus ?

advice ? yes /no / same umbrella ? different brolly ?

kind regards

barely.....

I'm a generalist tech PM so can kind of see where you're coming from.

I've done 2 outside PM contracts concurrently, BUT both were variable billing every week. Doesn't mean that the days billed added up to 5, it was between 5-8 depending on the hours I put in, what I delivered, etc. Both were fully remote with occasional travel. As it was a variable billing contract, both clients were aware that I wasn't 'exclusive' to them.

I've done one full-time inside and a variable-billing outside contract concurrently, first one hybrid and the second remote. The second client was aware that I am doing other stuff, the first client wasn't. But the inside contract always took priority as that was more 9-5.

Concurrent to all of the above, I also do fixed-price consulting gigs for past clients that I know very well, fully remote, no fixed hours, billing based on stage-wise deliverables written into the contract.

Personally, for a PM kind of role I wouldn't do two inside 9-5 full-time contracts concurrently as I wouldn't be able to manage it on an ongoing basis and I can't imagine either client would be happy if they knew.

[barely_pointless]

sure , that's fair enough, but the brolly contract is all but a zero hours one - no work no pay - etc, if I get a new contract and I need to get the brolly to approve it and they can dictate yes or no, or at least as I said earlier -within a weeks notice - after all , the brolly is my employer and the contract is set to protect them, not me. and that is why I insist on a weeks notice.

[northernladuk]

Seems brolly has a say on what I do, so looks like a no-go at least x2 inside, brolly won't need to know if I get an outside and overlap somewhat, which is basically the plan - for a compliant obligatory paye provider - the brolly seems to think they run it all, at least for a weeks notice, which is what I insist on

I'd be surprised at that. They own the contract and the terms so if you are moonlighting on their contract which is 9-5 they will want to know. Maybe not about the new gig but the fact you aren't doing the contracted 9-5 at their client.

[barely_pointless]

Hola todos, many. thanks for the replies (@ladymuck - yeah, I did a search but not deep enough - but thx found lots).

Seems brolly has a say on what I do, so looks like a no-go at least x2 inside, brolly won't need to know if I get an outside and overlap somewhat, which is basically the plan - for a compliant obligatory paye provider - the brolly seems to think they run it all, at least for a weeks notice, which is what I insist on

Thanks all, you can close this thread

[northernladuk]

This is a very common question. I'm surprised your search of the forum didn't turn up anything...

This.

We've been over this endlessly in the last year or so with many many threads on the same topic and they all end up exactly the same way. We'll point out reasons why this is unlikely to work and that you are too blinkered to see the reality. We will explain it 'could' be possible but highly unlikely in most situations we've seen and then Greenbastard will come on calling us all failed permies, ignore any and all contractual expectations and tell you to go fill your boots even though his situation is nothing like the one the OP is in.

As long as your umbrella employer(s) and their clients are aware and your contract(s) of employment allow it, knock yourself out. If they aren't, well, that could be a problem.

Ultimately this!

You need to understand what the expectations of your client are. You being able to fudge your time is one thing but it's the contract and client expectations. If your contract states working hours then you've got a bum on seat contract and they client is paying for that regardless of what you think you can do. The fact you can do it quicker doesn't mean you get to go work elsewhere on the clients time. They pay you for 9-5. Their poor management of you doesn't mean you can double bill.

It's possible, but unlikely your client shares your view that you can deliver what you want when you want and if you finish it in half the time then the rest of the time is yours. You are probably inside because they want direction and control. The fact they aren't doing this properly and you are only doing half the work they expect won't wash with them.

Then you've got to make that stick at not one, but two clients. Two inside clients happy with this. Highly unlikely... but again, possible. Never say never but in a vast number of these cases it's you being blinkered and eyeing up double billing rather than honouring the agreement and expectation of the client.

If you can tell both clients you finish the work early, they get what they asked for and you will be working on a different client for the rest of the day then happy days, go fill your boots. If you can't then you are just ripping your clients off. But check your contract. If it says 9-5 or 40 hours or week or some stipulation like that then generally you shouldn't be doing this.

Greenbastard will be along in a moment though.