Sueing a third party

[jmo21]

Interestingly, the permies I chat to seem to think that contractors experience this every other week.

They'd rather have a 95% chance of earning £100 a day, than a 80% chance of earning £500 a day.

Totally, there's a significantly higher chance they'll get a 6 month contract at £500/day that will get multiple extensions.

It would be remiss not to mention it though, especially if they have mortgage and kids.

For younger ones, without those things, I would focus more on the potential difficulty getting contracts as they are less experienced. Although again the 6 month/£500/day multiple extended contract is still a likely scenario.

[PerfectStorm]

Nature of the contracting beast, and one of the most important things to get your head around as a contractor. I always mention it when folks ask me about contracting.
"How would you feel if you left BigPermieCo, for a 6 month £700/day contract, and it gets canned a week later"?

Interestingly, the permies I chat to seem to think that contractors experience this every other week.

They'd rather have a 95% chance of earning £100 a day, than a 80% chance of earning £500 a day.

[northernladuk]

Oh.. Don't know if it got mentioned but you can only really go after the people you are contracted to for breach of contract. Absolutely zero chance of you going after their client. I'd imagine they've a lot more money to spend on lawyers for a start. That's just madness.

My standard response is suck it up buttercup. You are paid handsomely for this risk and sometimes things go wrong. That's contracting. But... in an effort to look helpful.

Some people have invoiced their client as usual up to the end of the notice period in the contract and got paid. Very occasionally but it's happened. Forget anything beyond notice period. You are in contract from they day you are told to stop work until the end of the notice period. Whether or not you get paid is a different thing as we have pointed out but the client may not know this. If you got told to down tools on Friday and you've got a weeks notice then invoice them up until Friday coming even if you didn't work and see what happens.
Point out the notice clause and you've invoiced as per the contract and hope they don't understand their own contract. Nothing to lose. Massive chance they'll say no and if so you've got to take it on the chin and move on. Nothing else for you there.

[jmo21]

Nature of the contracting beast, and one of the most important things to get your head around as a contractor. I always mention it when folks ask me about contracting.
"How would you feel if you left BigPermieCo, for a 6 month £700/day contract, and it gets canned a week later"?

It sucked the first time it happened to me (contract canned a few days before it started - that's prob better than getting onsite, starting a project, meeting people etc right enough)

Imagine you were contracted to Company A (via your Ltd, and other consultancy) to do the same work for the client, and Company A messed up exactly the same.

Even then, having a more direct relationship with them, you wouldn't have cause to sue them. It'd be "sorry, there's been a delay, we messed up, so there is no longer work for you."

[northernladuk]

Thanks for all the replies.....I appreciate all the sympathy

I've had contracts end early before and fully understand the 'no work = no revenue' side of contracting but this is the first time I've had a supplier admit that due to their negligence a project has had to grind to a halt until they fix things - I have a feeling the end client will try and recover their losses from the supplier so why shouldn't I.

But there we go, sounds like a non-starter.

And if they've provided a fixed price statement of work it's possible they can. They have lost something because the contract was to deliver X and they've terminated so could be a penalty amount or they may go for the full amount promised. You are on T&M so you can't. And whatever a client recovers is none of your business. It's not covered in the contract.

'no work = no revenue' is about as clear as it can be. Doesn't matter who did what to who and why. The 4 words in that statement still stand.

You really need to learn what you do and how your clients do business. It would make these things a bit clearer. Still as frustrating but will help you understand who does what why a bit better.

[jamesbrown]

I have a feeling the end client will try and recover their losses from the supplier so why shouldn't I.

But they will likely have actual losses they can demonstrate. You won't have any demonstrable losses because no pay is promised when no work is available (I assume that is what your contract says). As an aside, you don't have a contractual relationship with Company A, so you couldn't even theoretically raise a contractual dispute with them, only with your client, but you will not have lost anything under your contractual terms with your client (most likely).

[David71]

Thanks for all the replies.....I appreciate all the sympathy

I've had contracts end early before and fully understand the 'no work = no revenue' side of contracting but this is the first time I've had a supplier admit that due to their negligence a project has had to grind to a halt until they fix things - I have a feeling the end client will try and recover their losses from the supplier so why shouldn't I.

But there we go, sounds like a non-starter.

[PerfectStorm]

All very normal and you're being paid (I would hope, and assume) a certain way in recognition of a lack of mutuality of obligation - no work is guaranteed, and as long as you're being paid for what you HAVE done, none more is owed. The rest is merely intention.

[northernladuk]

Firstly, as soon as someone says 'sue someone' it's a pretty good indication they've no idea what they are doing. Anyone knows about debt recovery doesn't use the word sue and knows all the steps in between. Don't use the word. It generally makes people look utterly clueless.

Wondering if anyone has been in a similar situation

Yes, every contractor who's had a gig end early

and managed to recover lost revenue from a third party supplier?

No because they've not lost anything. Reasons why are in your contract

Here's the outline:

• My Ltd company is providing services to an end client via a consultancy (contract ends on 26/01/23). Typical, normal day rate contract
• A large IT company (Company 'A') is supplying the overall 'solution' to the end client
• Company 'A' has f'd up in a spectacular style basically causing a 'down tools' situation for almost everyone on the project - permie, contractor, end client, tea-lady, everyone, except for themselves as they are working flat-out to rectify the f'up
• I have a real feeling that in the next day or so I'll be told there's no work for me (I'm currently updating documents etc.) until the f'up is solved, which is estimated to be February at the earliest so I'll not be able to invoice from now until the end of my contract
• Company 'A' has openly accepted the mess is their responsibility

• Unlucky but happens to most of us at some point. Welcome to contracting.

Question is, (if I'm told to stop invoicing) can I go after Company 'A' as their mess has caused me loss of work up to 26/01/23?

No. You haven't lost work. You are a Time and Materials contractor so only get paid for the work you do. If there is no work you do not get paid so no loss.

I'm not looking for anything after 26/01 as I've got a new gig lined up but I'm potentially looking at a loss of invoiced revenue of 18k or thereabouts.

This is what contracting is about. Getting a supplier in and paying them for the work they do. We are a flexible resource and times like this we get let go. That's the advantage the clients have taking us on rather than perm. You need to fundamentally understand what you are. You also need to read and understand your contractor. It is, afterall, in your title as a 'CONTRACTor'

In there it will state no pay unless accompanied with a signed timesheet. You have no time sheet ergo no pay.

Not earning something does not mean you have lost it. You weren't given work so weren't entitled to it so you haven't lost it.

Just look at the positives, you've got some great evidence of your outside gig when HMRC come knocking.. Just don't tell them you expected to get paid it for doing no work though.

[gables]

Obvs I don't know your role in all this.... can you assist in fixing the mess? or maybe somehow working with the client in order to manage this situation?

[Lance]

No.


HTH

[David71]

I suspect there is nothing in your contract guaranteeing income until the 26/01/2023 and that the cost of going after the company in the courts is just not worth the risk for your £18k out of pocket.

My contract has an 'expected' number of days invoiceable:
"expected duration:130 Working days starting from Monday, 25th July 2022 to Thursday, 26th January 2023"

But I'm not thinking of going after the agency or consultancy (they both want me to keep putting in timesheets and invoicing as long as possible) but rather Company 'A' whose actions have directly caused a loss of revenue. I sort of liken it to sueing a person for loss of income if they hit you with their car and you can't get to work until you recover; I'd love to keep on working but Company 'A' have caused a 'car crash' which has directly stopped work.

[malvolio]

It's not a loss of revenue if you aren't being given work to do, it's an unfortunate side-effect of being in business when the work dries up. If you sue, you probably won't win but it will cost you more than £18k in legal fees to have any chance of winning. So it's annoying and you have our sympathy but that's about all you are going to get I'm afraid.

Been in the same position myself. Was out of the door almost immediately. Annoyingly when the cause of the cock-up sorted it and got things working again, they implemented my solution to the actual business problem themselves without my help. tulip happens.

[TheDude]

I suspect there is nothing in your contract guaranteeing income until the 26/01/2023 and that the cost of going after the company in the courts is just not worth the risk for your £18k out of pocket.

[David71]

Wondering if anyone has been in a similar situation and managed to recover lost revenue from a third party supplier?
Here's the outline:

• My Ltd company is providing services to an end client via a consultancy (contract ends on 26/01/23). Typical, normal day rate contract
• A large IT company (Company 'A') is supplying the overall 'solution' to the end client
• Company 'A' has f'd up in a spectacular style basically causing a 'down tools' situation for almost everyone on the project - permie, contractor, end client, tea-lady, everyone, except for themselves as they are working flat-out to rectify the f'up
• I have a real feeling that in the next day or so I'll be told there's no work for me (I'm currently updating documents etc.) until the f'up is solved, which is estimated to be February at the earliest so I'll not be able to invoice from now until the end of my contract
• Company 'A' has openly accepted the mess is their responsibility

Question is, (if I'm told to stop invoicing) can I go after Company 'A' as their mess has caused me loss of work up to 26/01/23?
I'm not looking for anything after 26/01 as I've got a new gig lined up but I'm potentially looking at a loss of invoiced revenue of 18k or thereabouts.

Advice?