Reply to: Overemployment / working two FT contracts at the same time?

[cojak]

I think that this thread has gone as far as it can go.

Thread closed.

[d000hg]

[QUOTE=TheGreenBastard;n4224816]

Can't you seethe somewhere else, instead of taking up your slave owners' allotted 8 hours doing it on here?
[QUOTE]
You seem to be the only one seething at what others are saying. The rest of us are having a professional discussion.
Equating employment with slavery is at best in bad taste.

[d000hg]

People who hold stupid views do love to paint themselves as being "brave oppressed souls standing up to the establishment" but the truth is nobody is banned for holding an opinion. They are banned for being unpleasant idiots in the way they express it. "moral quest", "slave owners" etc, hardly professional language is it? This isn't General.

[ensignia]

TheGreenBastard, prepare yourself for a banning for "trolling".

There are only a handful of opinions allowed on here from the old guard, and if you don't toe the party line you'll be getting an infraction from some crusty old geezer with too much time on his hands.

FWIW, I'm triple billing at the moment (2 Outside, 1 Inside) and will continue to do so despite what people on here say, while, ironically, spending their entire working day on here posting guff.

[jamesbrown]

Can't you seethe somewhere else, instead of taking up your slave owners' allotted 8 hours doing it on here?

I'd say that you're embarrassing yourself, but you're obviously completely shameless.

[TheGreenBastard]

What a load of sh1te... Power balances my arse. I've not heard such crap in a long while. And I talk to PMs
And "work teams as family" my hairy fat arse as well.

There is no power balance outside that which comes from the client having money that I want. The fact I won't lie or be otherwise dishonest about it is partially morality and partially good business.

The fact that you think this says a damn sight more about you, and your values, than it does about me.
And if I get a ban for calling you a ****** then so be it.

Turning this into a moral quest just proves it's a manifestation of a power imbalance, damn, look how angry you're getting protecting your slave owner's honour.

I sure as hell hope you ain't charging a full day's work, you've spent most of it on here seething, and charging the full 8 hours would be immoral.

[Lance]

I'm afraid I couldn't disagree any stronger regarding "morality", I honestly believe you feel that way as a manifestation of the power balances. Do you like to draw comparisons to work teams being "family"?

What a load of sh1te... Power balances my arse. I've not heard such crap in a long while. And I talk to PMs
And "work teams as family" my hairy fat arse as well.

There is no power balance outside that which comes from the client having money that I want. The fact I won't lie or be otherwise dishonest about it is partially morality and partially good business.

The fact that you think this says a damn sight more about you, and your values, than it does about me.
And if I get a ban for calling you a ****** then so be it.

[TheGreenBastard]

But that's exactly what you are, otherwise you'd have no problem with your pseudo-employers knowing.

Can't you seethe somewhere else, instead of taking up your slave owners' allotted 8 hours doing it on here?

It's not an opinion as such, well the first bit might be but the key point you are missing is the last few lines about what the client expects. The problem we have is the clients don't understand the model we want to achieve where you can do what you say and in most cases I don't think ever will. They don't expect a fixed price piece of work with deliverables. If they did then happy days, take 2, 3 or more contracts on if you can deliver what they want how you want and all are happy. But that's just not the case.

The client wants a service from a supplier to deliver in line with their projects and only in a few roles that can be done without aligning to the clients expectations, i.e. work 5 days a week and be available for all of those. I indicated the two different different types of gigs, delivered output and work day by day. You simply cannot dual run a contract if the client wants the latter. The issue is not my opinion, it's about what the client wants.

As also mentioned in that thread it's highly dependant on what you do. Coding and the like maybe but PM'ing, service delivery etc there is rarely any scope for dual working. In every gig I've ever done I've been pushed to deliver in time and have had to prioritise work to the timescales. No chance I can run two as I'd need two super quiet roles to be able to pull the wool over the clients eyes which just doesn't happen.

There isn't anything immoral about pulling a clients pants down and charging them over double what they are getting but from a business perspective it's very risky as they won't be happy when they find out. If someone gave them a quote for the real work plus a reasonable markup, your 100% markup gig will evaporate. You are relying on the client not knowing they are been ripped off. Yes it's good business for you until the client finds out and does something about it. Thank god clients are generally utter crap at supplier management and reviews.

I find that an extremely strange comment but that could be due to the the differences in what we deliver to the client. I think you've got some blinkers on there because that's how nearly every contractor works.

As I said right at that beginning of that thread we cannot just argue generally. We have to look at the detail of the engagement, what you do for the client and then claim this gig is one for dual running. Arguing you run two gigs so all of contractors can do it is just an utter waste of time.

This post is more pragmatic, some of which I agree with.

Not all disciplines can deliver parallel work streams, that goes without saying, a plumber for instance, or like you say even many disciplines within IT.

I've worked in all sorts of companies, never has a continual stream of required 8 hour days weeks on end been required, this is an anecdote, it could simply be luck, however the broad spectrum of company size and industry type makes me believe that generally, for software specialists, it's just not the norm.

No not all can do it (never claimed that, but you don't actually know until you try), but remember 50% of people are better than average, I am average, I have done it for nearly a decade for some top names in some high stake sectors.

One thing I won't do, which I have some suspicion others are doing, is gatekeep.

**** me. There's a lot of willy wagging in this thread.


For what it's worth. I am of the opinion that if you have to keep it secret from your client then what you're doing is morally questionable.

I actually get more multi-gig work from clients who know what I do. They know a full time BOS contractor would just rip them off , and that I'll do T&M, at 1.5 - 2x the rate and they'll still pay less, and get the delivery they need. So it's good business to be honest.
Note that one of my clients requires SC, and are the sponsor, so it's not like I could even hide other clients, even if I wanted to.

I often do a mixture (always outside IR53) of day rate and/or SoW deliverables, if the companies paying a day rate asked I would tell them, the how and when I do the work is none of their business within the limitations of the contract, they engaged me "outside IR35" and I've never not delivered.

I'm afraid I couldn't disagree any stronger regarding "morality", I honestly believe you feel that way as a manifestation of the power balances. Do you like to draw comparisons to work teams being "family"?

[Lance]

**** me. There's a lot of willy wagging in this thread.


For what it's worth. I am of the opinion that if you have to keep it secret from your client then what you're doing is morally questionable.

I actually get more multi-gig work from clients who know what I do. They know a full time BOS contractor would just rip them off , and that I'll do T&M, at 1.5 - 2x the rate and they'll still pay less, and get the delivery they need. So it's good business to be honest.
Note that one of my clients requires SC, and are the sponsor, so it's not like I could even hide other clients, even if I wanted to.

[northernladuk]

Weird how people claim to operate as true outside IR35 contractors and have opinions like this.

A true business would arbitrage their efficiency with deliverables - to me it's synonymous with negotiating fixed price work, if you're a good negotiator and manage to bag a 60K quote for 20K's worth of work, all the power to you, nothing "immoral" about it.

80% of the time, I've got 2+ gigs (billing 10 days per week). I deliver, I get renewed, and I'm Joe Average, I really struggle to understand how people struggle to get the work done within a normal working day, and I've worked in some God awful startup environments.

It's not an opinion as such, well the first bit might be but the key point you are missing is the last few lines about what the client expects. The problem we have is the clients don't understand the model we want to achieve where you can do what you say and in most cases I don't think ever will. They don't expect a fixed price piece of work with deliverables. If they did then happy days, take 2, 3 or more contracts on if you can deliver what they want how you want and all are happy. But that's just not the case.

The client wants a service from a supplier to deliver in line with their projects and only in a few roles that can be done without aligning to the clients expectations, i.e. work 5 days a week and be available for all of those. I indicated the two different different types of gigs, delivered output and work day by day. You simply cannot dual run a contract if the client wants the latter. The issue is not my opinion, it's about what the client wants.

As also mentioned in that thread it's highly dependant on what you do. Coding and the like maybe but PM'ing, service delivery etc there is rarely any scope for dual working. In every gig I've ever done I've been pushed to deliver in time and have had to prioritise work to the timescales. No chance I can run two as I'd need two super quiet roles to be able to pull the wool over the clients eyes which just doesn't happen.

There isn't anything immoral about pulling a clients pants down and charging them over double what they are getting but from a business perspective it's very risky as they won't be happy when they find out. If someone gave them a quote for the real work plus a reasonable markup, your 100% markup gig will evaporate. You are relying on the client not knowing they are been ripped off. Yes it's good business for you until the client finds out and does something about it. Thank god clients are generally utter crap at supplier management and reviews.

I really struggle to understand how people struggle to get the work done within a normal working day, and I've worked in some God awful startup environments.

I find that an extremely strange comment but that could be due to the the differences in what we deliver to the client. I think you've got some blinkers on there because that's how nearly every contractor works.

As I said right at that beginning of that thread we cannot just argue generally. We have to look at the detail of the engagement, what you do for the client and then claim this gig is one for dual running. Arguing you run two gigs so all of contractors can do it is just an utter waste of time.

[jamesbrown]

a subservient SIMP

But that's exactly what you are, otherwise you'd have no problem with your pseudo-employers knowing.

[TheGreenBastard]

Like I said, you're unserious, a joke outfit, no different than a dodgy builder . I bet you've never actually done any B2B work in your life - you're a classic BoS permietractor with eyes bigger than your stomach.

I multi-gig (including FAANG) and run a profitable SaaS, multi-gigging also accelerated my BTL, call me anything you like, those facts are immutable.

The income from 7 years multi-gigging is no joke, anyone reading this who isn't a subservient SIMP, give it a try, it might just change your life.

[jamesbrown]

Scared yes I don't want to upset my slave owner. The rest of this post is basically exposing how happy you are with the power balance, i.e. having none, enjoying being incapacitated to make real business decisions, and scoffing at folk that do by calling them "chancers" or that they're "scared". Iced off with a no true Scotsman fallacy.

Like I said, you're unserious, a joke outfit, no different than a dodgy builder . I bet you've never actually done any B2B work in your life - you're a classic BoS permietractor with eyes bigger than your stomach.

[TheGreenBastard]

You're only saying that because you're "scared" or, rather, certain about how your clients would react. Hiding information from clients is not how proper businesses operate, it's how chancers operate and says nothing either way about being "in-business" or "not a permietractor", only that you are crap at business. I am totally transparent with my T&M clients that I am doing parallel work, if it comes up - since I charge by the hour for T&M work, the only scenario in which it comes up is non-availability for meetings. You cannot seriously do T&M work for multiple clients if you charge for a professional day - that is for unserious people. It's obviously a non-issue with FFP work.

Scared yes I don't want to upset my slave owner. The rest of this post is basically exposing how happy you are with the power balance, i.e. having none, enjoying being incapacitated to make real business decisions, and scoffing at folk that do by calling them "chancers" or that they're "scared". Iced off with a no true Scotsman fallacy.

[jamesbrown]

Do you think that is a "gotcha"? It's just permietractor sentiment.

You're only saying that because you're "scared" or, rather, certain about how your clients would react. Hiding information from clients is not how proper businesses operate, it's how chancers operate and says nothing either way about being "in-business" or "not a permietractor", only that you are crap at business. I am totally transparent with my T&M clients that I am doing parallel work, if it comes up - since I charge by the hour for T&M work, the only scenario in which it comes up is non-availability for meetings. You cannot seriously do T&M work for multiple clients if you charge for a professional day - that is for unserious people. It's obviously a non-issue with FFP work.