Reply to: Survey... in, out, shake it all about?

[hugebrain]

What is or is not considered your normal workplace isn't determined by how often you have to go there. If an employer is prepared to designate your home as your place of work (most have an office address specified) in the contract then you might qualify for expenses to visit the office - but that would be rare in my experience, and even then HMRC may disagree.

Potentially yes - A permie employee who worked in a pub, a coffee bar and a cafe would be expected to pay their own travel expenses from taxable income for each of the three jobs they hold - why are you any different?
When you work inside IR35 you are in the same tax position - but with no employment rights.
If you want tax-free expenses, you really need to become an MP.

You seem to have gone a bit quiet about your original contention that you could use your limited co to pay expenses btw.

When I worked last worked as a permie I worked at two office locations Reading and Newbury. When I went to Newbury they paid my travel expenses. When they sent me a bit further (New Orleans) they paid for hotels and meals.

if my main office is at home and my company sends me out to different locations from time to time I’d expect the company to pay me in the same way.

I doubt I’ll take any inside IR35 contracts, if I do I’ll check up on the rules. I’d be surprised if as well as paying more tax and having no employment rights there were special anti-contractor rules on travel. But who knows, the Conservatives are crazy, e.g. subsidising power bills so BP can whack up their prices a bit more,

[Peoplesoft bloke]

But I thought permies had the same regular place of work rules as decent people? For example, I work less than two days a week in the office (and less than two years) so it’s not considered my normal workplace. As a temporary employee (shudder) wouldn’t I be able to get paid hotel expenses without it being a benefit in kind, if my employer deigned to give them to me?

What is or is not considered your normal workplace isn't determined by how often you have to go there. If an employer is prepared to designate your home as your place of work (most have an office address specified) in the contract then you might qualify for expenses to visit the office - but that would be rare in my experience, and even then HMRC may disagree.

What if I worked three IR35 caught jobs simultaneously? Would all of them be my regular workplace, even if they were in different cities?

Potentially yes - A permie employee who worked in a pub, a coffee bar and a cafe would be expected to pay their own travel expenses from taxable income for each of the three jobs they hold - why are you any different?
When you work inside IR35 you are in the same tax position - but with no employment rights.
If you want tax-free expenses, you really need to become an MP.

You seem to have gone a bit quiet about your original contention that you could use your limited co to pay expenses btw.

[eek]

But I thought permies had the same regular place of work rules as decent people? For example, I work less than two days a week in the office (and less than two years) so it’s not considered my normal workplace. As a temporary employee (shudder) wouldn’t I be able to get paid hotel expenses without it being a benefit in kind, if my employer deigned to give them to me?

What if I worked three IR35 caught jobs simultaneously? Would all of them be my regular workplace, even if they were in different cities?

You need to look at HMRC’s travel and expenses manuals - it is way,way more complex than what you outline there and rather more biased towards journeys being commuting than you would think.

[hugebrain]

You can't get expenses on an inside gig. At all.

You are employed on the same basis as an employee for tax purposes and permies can't get expenses for travelling to their regular place of work - so neither can you.

You can't use your LTD as a dodge to pay expenses free of personal tax to which you are not entitled.

The only way I know of to get these paid would be an outside IR35 gig or to be an MP - or be a permie employee of a consulting firm where you are home based and no contract is expected to (or does) last longer than 2 years.

But I thought permies had the same regular place of work rules as decent people? For example, I work less than two days a week in the office (and less than two years) so it’s not considered my normal workplace. As a temporary employee (shudder) wouldn’t I be able to get paid hotel expenses without it being a benefit in kind, if my employer deigned to give them to me?

What if I worked three IR35 caught jobs simultaneously? Would all of them be my regular workplace, even if they were in different cities?

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Not sure who I’d be justifying it to, or why, but an obvious reason would be to keep skills current to enable profits in future.

It’s perfectly normal for companies to run at a loss, and that was the purpose of the IR35 legislation in the first place (to make small companies lose money and go out of business).

What are you guys on about?

Making me paranoid with all these weird fears you have about this and that.

You can't get expenses on an inside gig. At all.

You are employed on the same basis as an employee for tax purposes and permies can't get expenses for travelling to their regular place of work - so neither can you.

You can't use your LTD as a dodge to pay expenses free of personal tax to which you are not entitled.

The only way I know of to get these paid would be an outside IR35 gig or to be an MP - or be a permie employee of a consulting firm where you are home based and no contract is expected to (or does) last longer than 2 years.

[eek]

Not sure who I’d be justifying it to, or why, but an obvious reason would be to keep skills current to enable profits in future.

It’s perfectly normal for companies to run at a loss, and that was the purpose of the IR35 legislation in the first place (to make small companies lose money and go out of business).

What are you guys on about?

Making me paranoid with all these weird fears you have about this and that.

The problem with your idea is that in an inside IR35 contract your company isn’t technically part of the contract.

and deemed payments are crap because it doesn’t provide access to any pension unlike using an umbrella.

[hugebrain]

Would love to see the justification you could use to run an inside IR35 Contract via deemed payments while the company made a loss to pay expenses

Not sure who I’d be justifying it to, or why, but an obvious reason would be to keep skills current to enable profits in future.

It’s perfectly normal for companies to run at a loss, and that was the purpose of the IR35 legislation in the first place (to make small companies lose money and go out of business).

What are you guys on about?

Making me paranoid with all these weird fears you have about this and that.

[mookiemoo]

3 outside since the riles came in

Last day as a contractor today - permie as of monday

Client I'm currently at offered me a permie gig. very small company (but been around a long time) - only 7 of us. Permanent WFH. None of the usual HR crap you have to deal with. If the work load is light, they don't expect you to make busy work.

Very flexible.

If I was ever going to go permie this would be the sort of company so I thought I'd try it - worst case I phrase it as a contract and go back to contracting. I do my own accounts (accountant by original trade) so just going to keep the limited co ticking over for a while just in case.

[northernladuk]

Would love to see the justification you could use to run an inside IR35 Contract via deemed payments while the company made a loss to pay expenses

[eek]

Surely inside IR35 is better if you have travel expenses/rent to pay? I don’t think umbrellas pay for these with pretax money but with your company you can use your retained profits and claim back the tax.

or did they change all that?

IANAA

Would love to see the justification you could use to run an inside IR35 Contract via deemed payments while the company made a loss to pay expenses

[hugebrain]

Surely inside Ir35 contract == umbrella as otherwise you are certified insane.

Surely inside IR35 is better if you have travel expenses/rent to pay? I don’t think umbrellas pay for these with pretax money but with your company you can use your retained profits and claim back the tax.

or did they change all that?

IANAA

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Really? I work in a related area and I'm constantly bombarded with agents looking for Workday consultants and PM's. Although given that nothing in my experience says I know jack about Workday may give some indication as to the quality of those agents....

I would be willing to bet significant amounts that 99% of those are either permie roles or inside IR35. I've come across about 6 genuine outside gigs since the PSC ban started, none of which were my area.

As for agents - I am still getting the most ridiculous messages on linkedin about roles for which I clearly have zero knowledge or experience - they are just blunderbussing anyone with a pulse it seems.

If anyone knows of an actual pile of outside roles for Workday, I'm all ears.

[Bodger]

I went perm. (Almost) no outside contracts doing Workday implementations (which is what I do) - PSC bans still firmly in place, and I don't consider inside IR35 to be actual contracting.

Really? I work in a related area and I'm constantly bombarded with agents looking for Workday consultants and PM's. Although given that nothing in my experience says I know jack about Workday may give some indication as to the quality of those agents....

[Peoplesoft bloke]

I went perm. (Almost) no outside contracts doing Workday implementations (which is what I do) - PSC bans still firmly in place, and I don't consider inside IR35 to be actual contracting.

[simes]

It’s a bit self-selecting, purely anecdotal. The people that still hang around here will probably disproportionately work on outside contracts.

Could be a good point that.

My 'all too long' two-month period in an Inside contract had that very effect and, as such, I didn't bother coming to this site at all during that time. Felt erm, almost inappropriate.