Reply to: Looking for a second contract whilst currently in an existing contract

[psychocandy]

Bit naughty IMHO.....

Reminds of one of my mates a few years ago. He saw nothing wrong with a bit of adultery. Had 2 phones etc. Had made up business trips etc.

He used to moan "I'm so stressed, its difficult to juggle things sometimes, and its hard to keep up the lies".

Always used to say "DON'T DO IT THEN!"

Can imagine having two contracts being a bit like that and having to lie to one or both parties all the time.

[ladymuck]

Doing 2 contracts at the moment.
One is fixed price work and the other paid by the hour. Both clients know about each other.
The agencies have no clue, although they might find out if they look at invoice numbers. However no contract is breached so they can't do anything even if they knew.

So it is possible. Just be upfront with your clients and if they are happy with it fill your boots.

I did very similar a couple of years ago. A fixed price gig and winding down from a day rate gig. I just did ad hoc hours for the latter and then billed them for the days worked at the end of the month. I only had about 10 days left on the SOW and I was just supporting handovers and training at key times. It worked really well as both clients knew I was fitting them in around each other. I set good expectations as to when the work would be done and negotiated if there were priority clashes.

[BlasterBates]

It's weird how it is this big ethical thing here to make sure you are only billing the exact number of hours you work but this is not a thing in any other professional services. Accountancy or Legal services all bill more hours than physical hours they put in. Not sure why it's just the IT folk who are held to a higher standard. It's ironic because there is no professional ethical/regulatory body like there is for them... yet as a group we are more ethical. It's just weird.

Other professions are held to account. Generally accountants and lawyers charge set fees, if they're paid by the hour then also need to be accurate on the number of hours. Overcharging is an offence and no-one is above the law.

https://www.duncanlewis.co.uk/crime_...rch_2016).html

[zonkkk]

Doing 2 contracts at the moment.
One is fixed price work and the other paid by the hour. Both clients know about each other.
The agencies have no clue, although they might find out if they look at invoice numbers. However no contract is breached so they can't do anything even if they knew.

So it is possible. Just be upfront with your clients and if they are happy with it fill your boots.

[northernladuk]

Doing set hours, as you've been so insistent on telling everyone, is a hallmark of a permietractor yet whenever these threads show up you use the "cLiEnTs ExPeCt SeT hOuRs" line consistently to say why it isn't allowed.

I don't see what your argument is here. I am sure I don't say set hours is a sign of a permietractor but it is just one part of a complex list around IR35 and the like. It's not a pillar but it can be a factor. So the first half of the sentence is about the difference between being a perm and contractor is true. It's a factor.

The second half is talking about the contractors contractual situation. Sad as it is, a vast majority of contracts require set times, set hours or a professional day. I'm talking about the reality of the contract.

So you are are confusing two different contexts and not really making a point.

Is it about delivering and meeting objectives or is it about hours worked and presenteeism? Pick one.

And as I've said, it's in the contract. A vast number of contracts will have a woolly SoW and a statement about working time arrangements so it's the second of your options in most cases.

It shouldn't be about set hours and it should be about deliving objectives. In some cases it is. In a vast number it isn't. If the OP has hours in his contract he can't moonlight on those hours. It's as simple as that.

If a contractor has to ask if he can do a second role he clearly doesn't understand delivery and objectives so is likely to be in a bum on seat 9 to 5 contract. The only thing that has changed is that he's out of his clients eye due to WFH.

The whole thing becomes even clearer if one of those gigs is inside. The OP hasn't mentioned that aspect of it.

[NotAllThere]

Oh. This again. See my previous posts for how I made it work. Btw - never inform that agency of anything except:
1. You need a raise.
2. ... er no. That's it.

I worked for one agency where they suddenly realised that despite me not filling in their timesheets, they'd paid me, and that they'd renewed my contract.

[ensignia]

The people that have to ask are bum on seat contractors who don't understand their situation so the answer is no you can't.

Doing set hours, as you've been so insistent on telling everyone, is a hallmark of a permietractor yet whenever these threads show up you use the "cLiEnTs ExPeCt SeT hOuRs" line consistently to say why it isn't allowed.

Is it about delivering and meeting objectives or is it about hours worked and presenteeism? Pick one.

[ladymuck]

It's weird how it is this big ethical thing here to make sure you are only billing the exact number of hours you work but this is not a thing in any other professional services. Accountancy or Legal services all bill more hours than physical hours they put in. Not sure why it's just the IT folk who are held to a higher standard. It's ironic because there is no professional ethical/regulatory body like there is for them... yet as a group we are more ethical. It's just weird.

In legal professions your contract will state charging in, say 15 minute increments. If they spend 16 minutes drafting a letter to you, you'll be charged for 30 minutes. If they then spend 10 minutes reading a document for another client and two minutes leaving an answerphone message for a third client then they'll definitely be charging three clients for the same 30 minutes of time.

In IT, most contracts don't accommodate that type of arrangement. The client expectations are that if they're paying you for a day, they get your time for that day. If the billing was in smaller time increments then it would probably be easier to do multiple contracts because the client would only be paying for the time you're spending on their work. Once they get the hint that you're working for someone else yet charging them, they quite rightly get the hump.

[northernladuk]

It's weird how it is this big ethical thing here to make sure you are only billing the exact number of hours you work but this is not a thing in any other professional services. Accountancy or Legal services all bill more hours than physical hours they put in. Not sure why it's just the IT folk who are held to a higher standard. It's ironic because there is no professional ethical/regulatory body like there is for them... yet as a group we are more ethical. It's just weird.

No it's not. It's contractual. If you are contracted to work for a set time then you cannot moonlight on that time without permission from the client, which you are unlikely to get. If you do it's breach of contract. Ethics don't come in to it.

If you can get a contract where this type of working is allowed then happy days but they are very few and far between and suitable for certain types of roles.

The general answer is yes it is possible in some situations but nearly 100% of the time the answer to an OP that asks is no you can't. If you had enough nouse to pull it off you would have negotiated and be doing it without having to ask. The people that have to ask are bum on seat contractors who don't understand their situation so the answer is no you can't.

[jayn200]

It's weird how it is this big ethical thing here to make sure you are only billing the exact number of hours you work but this is not a thing in any other professional services. Accountancy or Legal services all bill more hours than physical hours they put in. Not sure why it's just the IT folk who are held to a higher standard. It's ironic because there is no professional ethical/regulatory body like there is for them... yet as a group we are more ethical. It's just weird.

[Paralytic]

If you feel you can't tell your existing client, then i suspect you know its not the right thing to do.

But, if you want to risk it, go for it. There's a few on here who don't seen the irony in spending 50% of their client's time posting/reading on here, but think its morally wrong for others to spend the same 50% billing another client.

[BlasterBates]

while I never told them, I think they knew or suspected, however I was fairly critical to both clients, so we made it work.

This is the key here, there's a good chance they will find out, so even if you don't tell them make sure you're not double booking, so if they complain you can explain that you worked your hours.

[IVR247]

So I have done this, but the main contract was a support contract for a vital computer system. I had two subbies who would receive alerts as well as me. They knew enough to keep the client happy until I could take over. The second contract was insanely busy, but I had both laptops on the desk and, while I never told them, I think they knew or suspected, however I was fairly critical to both clients, so we made it work.

My tactic for meetings was to never contribute anything, they soon stopped inviting me unless I was really needed.

Project work for the first client, I would quote a price and a number of days required which was generous, leaving plenty of space for any clashes.

Best year had me earn around 350K.

[SussexSeagull]

Can it be done? Absolutely, in fact a few of my recent contracts would have allowed it.

However what happens if both want you in a meeting or once or have a deadline that needs your undivided attention?

Long story short is you might vert well be ok to do it but it isn't without risks.

[northernladuk]

The naysayers will say 'nay' as can be seen above, which usually means it's a good idea.

Naysayers have also explained why which usually means your comment is not good advice.