Reply to: Recruiter demanded that our interview be recorded

[LondonManc]

because you do not encourage people to have a very skeptical attitude about agents, market and clients. everything is up for question and contracting is a business relationship. we should be able to push the equilibrium towards our advantage and demand better terms.

as I see it, there are two team, one of them benefiting from asymmetrical power. they have the agents on their side, practices and experience. as I see it it is a ideological warfare, it can be analysed from the interactions between the parties. A lot of the communication is deliberately confusing, misleading to be able to set a ground for them to take advantage of the situation. And they have the economical side on their side, we have limited resources in comparison and one way or another have to engage with them.

Another example is how many of the job adverts are fake, many of the recruiters call without having a role to fill. Some of them are as a result of how their market works but I believe it is also deliberate to bring more awareness to the contractor. Put them in their place. If you have 10 recruiters telling you 70k is your salary, you tend to believe them. It doesn't matter that they had no role to fill only acting out of office exercies.

You will have/ or already have kids and they will grow up one day to be like daddy, because that's what they will be. They will do what are told, get good grades, get a specialised domain knowledge. Then they realise that they are no longer able to get permanent jobs because by that point HR has become very good at picking up on entrepreneurial spirit and independent mindset so they will put them at the back of the queue. Contractors do not make good employees and without this market there are limited ways that you could earn a leaving in this word.

It might be slightly pushed but still believe close to the truth.
HTH

Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

I have always said that their are different types of agents (and indeed agencies) and it's a contractor's job to figure out which to build relationships with and which to politely ignore - never be rude to someone as it can come back to bite you. If you want equality, then by extension, educate the agencies on IR35, proper rates for the roles, what they'll end up with if they go cheap, etc. Who else is going to do it if the contractors don't? If you simply sit there with your "I'm better than everyone" attitude, then you're going to lose. You assert that "contracting is a business relationship" yet you don't seem to want to build relationships with the people who can source the income lines for you. Very odd.

Your last two paragraphs aren't worth replying to, absolute bollix.

[GigiBronz]

Sky have started offering 12 month fixed term contracts - that is why worse than any umbrella deal

I would not mind an FTC if the salary was fair and notice period short. But if they can't offer more than what they are offering to the perm team... It is dogsh**.

[PerfectStorm]

I had one record it surreptitiously. He introduced the client and myself over video, then dialled out.

Then came over the audio; "this meeting is being recorded". I continued the interview, but with this in mind.

Afterwards the agent asked my availability for a 2nd interview. "Not a problem", I said, "but would you mind not recording this one"?

I was met with a silence before "...How did you know that was being recorded?"

"The meeting told me. And I think the information commissioner would be very interested if they knew interviews were being recorded without consent, especially after reading your very long GDPR statement you sent me. Will there be an issue with turning it off?"

There was no issue :-)

[northernladuk]

I think I would do something so silly during the presentation that I would be remembered for anything but my presentation.

But there is no bad publicity I guess…

As soon as you open your mouth I think you've got that one covered.

[GigiBronz]

Crikey, that's brave. I know feck all about feck all. The last place I want people to find that out is at a conference

I think I would do something so silly during the presentation that I would be remembered for anything but my presentation.

But there is no bad publicity I guess…

[eek]

Crikey, that's brave. I know feck all about feck all. The last place I want people to find that out is at a conference

In the power platform world the talks range from beginner to true experts across both technology and soft skills. Given that a lot of people are functional rather than technical there would be plenty of soft skill or low tech stuff you could talk about and people would be interested in, for instance how to quickly write decent user documentation

[cojak]

Crikey, that's brave. I know feck all about feck all. The last place I want people to find that out is at a conference

It was a fluff piece on stakeholder management during ITSM implementations, but it got me in front of clients.

[ladymuck]

Or offer to speak at a conference in the area you specialise in. Event organisers are always desperate for new speakers - it gets your face in front of potential clients.

Thats’s what I did when I started out.

Crikey, that's brave. I know feck all about feck all. The last place I want people to find that out is at a conference

[cojak]

Or offer to speak at a conference in the area you specialise in. Event organisers are always desperate for new speakers - it gets your face in front of potential clients.

Thats’s what I did when I started out.

[Paralytic]

that is a bit different than charity work I was implying. maybe I lack imagination but I am not sure how I could do that for the business I am in. Maybe contribute to opensource projects.

This is exactly the sort of thing you can look to do to make a name for yourself, alongside the ideas eek mentioned. I've done the same in the past too - me and another spotted a new technology trend and created a mailing list around it (had over 10K+ subscribers), created some open source projects (MVC framework, when MVC was a think, unit testing framework etc). We were seen as the go-team team in Europe for the technology, picking up gigs on the back of our work, grew the team, spoke at conferences and eventually were bought out by a product vendor to become part of their European consultancy. We started out as two individual conrtractos.

Contractors who act and think like an employee, which is the vast majority of contractors i've ever worked with, do not see opportunities like this.

[eek]

that is to be appreciated indeed but I still think that there is more to gain by educating people to stand their ground and question the nature of interactions we have. we would have had a better market if there was more negotiating ability on the contractor side.

look at how the market is now, we've had very limited outside roles for months on end or agents were being very difficult about them. now the outside ir35 market is flourishing. because of the market fundamentals we are in a better position. (whether they are actually outside roles and not just false promises that fail to materialise in the contract, that is a different question)

but we could have made that all along by refusing to work inside or take perm roles on false pretenses and dismal take home. (that you work 60h per week and get laid off before 2 years because of 'budget')

umbrella is also the worst case scenario, you pay all taxes upfront, dismal take home and you cost also the client too much and incentivise him to keep the relation short. the fact that with a clear framework(clearer than any other we have) umbrella companies still fail to do what they were supposed to do is probably also a sign that it is an inherent fault with the legislation surrounding them and that people want it that way for a reason.
what is that umbrella accreditation? only but a seal of a approval from the old boys regulating the business and wanting their cut.

Sky have started offering 12 month fixed term contracts - that is why worse than any umbrella deal

[GigiBronz]

What part of the current establishment do you think I trust? Remember I've spent 5 years creating my own consultancy so I'm not stuck dealing with agents anymore and dictate my terms on a take it or leave it basis.

And to emphasis that point - my current project is real time transparency for umbrella companies - because no-one else is going to fix that industryt so I'm doing that out of my own time and pocket.

that is to be appreciated indeed but I still think that there is more to gain by educating people to stand their ground and question the nature of interactions we have. we would have had a better market if there was more negotiating ability on the contractor side.

look at how the market is now, we've had very limited outside roles for months on end or agents were being very difficult about them. now the outside ir35 market is flourishing. because of the market fundamentals we are in a better position. (whether they are actually outside roles and not just false promises that fail to materialise in the contract, that is a different question)

but we could have made that all along by refusing to work inside or take perm roles on false pretenses and dismal take home. (that you work 60h per week and get laid off before 2 years because of 'budget')

umbrella is also the worst case scenario, you pay all taxes upfront, dismal take home and you cost also the client too much and incentivise him to keep the relation short. the fact that with a clear framework(clearer than any other we have) umbrella companies still fail to do what they were supposed to do is probably also a sign that it is an inherent fault with the legislation surrounding them and that people want it that way for a reason.
what is that umbrella accreditation? only but a seal of a approval from the old boys regulating the business and wanting their cut.

[eek]

if you are part of the one that trusts the current establishment I am not sure what says more about being a clueless idiot.

What part of the current establishment do you think I trust? Remember I've spent 5 years creating my own consultancy so I'm not stuck dealing with agents anymore and dictate my terms on a take it or leave it basis.

And to emphasis that point - my current project is real time transparency for umbrella companies - because no-one else is going to fix that industryt so I'm doing that out of my own time and pocket.

[GigiBronz]

Well in reality your posts make you out to be a clueless idiot but that doesn't seem to have stop you or a lot of other people posting.

if you are part of the one that trusts the current establishment I am not sure what says more about being a clueless idiot.

[eek]

that is a bit different than charity work I was implying. maybe I lack imagination but I am not sure how I could do that for the business I am in. Maybe contribute to opensource projects.

I still hope that some of my posts on this forum are helping the contracting mindset. But most of the time they are against the corporate agenda so not quite sure they count.

Well in reality your posts make you out to be a clueless idiot but that doesn't seem to have stop you or a lot of other people posting.