Reply to: Taking multiple contracts

[northernladuk]

You're an employee of your LTD?

Put that down

Except that is not true.

[ikodel]

I have been thinking about taking on two contracts myself...

How would you record them on your CV though? If you have two clients at the same time then any future client will see you have juggled two in the past? or do you just leave one off?

You're an employee of your LTD?

Put that down

[NotAllThere]

Plod doesn't get involved, it is a civil and potentially a private prosecution by the legal dept of the client co or agency. If you read the small print on a recruiter's timesheet app you will often find a reference to the effect that timesheets must be accurate and if not will potentially result in civil proceedings and prosecution.

Fraud is fraud. If you lie on any documents for a commercial transaction any lawyer can submit the evidence to a prosecutor.

KUATB https://forums.contractoruk.com/busi...ml#post2924632

[BlasterBates]

Well, no you're not. Time spent going to the bog, getting a coffee, having a chat with colleagues about how the war is going etc. - that's all time not spent on what you're being paid for.

"hours spent" is a nebulous concept. In practice it's defined as (e.g.) 7.5 hours worth of work. I.e. the work that's expected to be done in 7.5 hours. If you do it in 4 - then good for you. I've known some companies where the purchasing department mandated a maximum price. To get the people they wanted, managers paid for 8 hour days, but the contractors worked only 4.

I find it amusing how precious some people get, spouting on about fraud. Who, exactly, is being defrauded? Who will contact plod to investigate?

Plod doesn't get involved, it is a civil and potentially a private prosecution by the legal dept of the client co or agency. If you read the small print on a recruiter's timesheet app you will often find a reference to the effect that timesheets must be accurate and if not will potentially result in civil proceedings and prosecution.

Fraud is fraud. If you lie on any documents for a commercial transaction any lawyer can submit the evidence to a prosecutor.

[jamesbrown]

A good, straightforward test for this is the following. If all parties were aware of the situation, would all parties be happy or would one or more clients accuse the contractor of breach of contract? If all parties are happy, then the contractor should have no issues with making it transparent (e.g., "I am not available for this meeting because I have a conflicting meeting") and they should fill their boots.

[jamesbrown]

Ooh look. There's a straw. Best reach for it. OK, for civil fraud. Who, exactly, is being defrauded? Who will contact a lawyer to initiate court proceedings?

Plenty of people work contracts on notional T&M. So long as both parties are happy with that, there's no need for anyone to get their knickers in a twist. As NLUK points out - the questions being asked show the OP is, effectively, wanting to scam, because clearly the client won't be happy. But it's not about working a notional 7.5 hour day.

I've only ever done two contracts where I actually had to clock in. The first of these was a 45 hour week - people tended to compensate by having longer and more frequent coffee breaks. The second, the manager was quite happy for me to work on another project when there wasn't enough work for me to do on his.

Awww. Allow me to put this in Ladybird terms just for you. If all parties are agreed that the contract is being delivered, there are no issues, obviously. Why would a happy client get their legal team involved? If, on the other hand, one or more clients becomes aware of underperformance, such as a lack of availability for meetings, and it transpires that the reason for that underperformance is deceit due to the contractor selling the same availability N times, then there is a problem.

I know it is sometimes hard to grasp the subtleties of reality; like how armed robbery and taste testing the pic-n-mix are not equivalent things, but there you go. Probably you and Lance and other experienced contractors can walk this line perfectly adequately, although I sometimes wonder about you , but the typical n00b, or otherwise credulous twit, that tries to sell the same availability to N clients, not so much.

[NotAllThere]

I find it amusing how some people get, spouting on about "plod" in a commercial context. Deceit is grounds for commercial fraud. As to the loss associated with it, that is a completely separate matter, probably best entertained by someone who can distinguish between criminal and commercial.

Ooh look. There's a straw. Best reach for it. OK, for civil fraud. Who, exactly, is being defrauded? Who will contact a lawyer to initiate court proceedings?

Plenty of people work contracts on notional T&M. So long as both parties are happy with that, there's no need for anyone to get their knickers in a twist. As NLUK points out - the questions being asked show the OP is, effectively, wanting to scam, because clearly the client won't be happy. But it's not about working a notional 7.5 hour day.

I've only ever done two contracts where I actually had to clock in. The first of these was a 45 hour week - people tended to compensate by having longer and more frequent coffee breaks. The second, the manager was quite happy for me to work on another project when there wasn't enough work for me to do on his.

[northernladuk]

I have been thinking about taking on two contracts myself...

How would you record them on your CV though? If you have two clients at the same time then any future client will see you have juggled two in the past? or do you just leave one off?

It's this level of thinking that tells me you are not ready. If you've got the nouse to be able to run to contracts these questions should be simple. You can't tick box these things. You need to be astute enough to understand the situation, know what you are doing, the stakeholders involved, the contractual impact and so on which would lead to not having to ask these questions.

If you have to ask how you present it in linkedin then you are not ready and you are just out to scam one or both of your clients.

[jamesbrown]

Well, no you're not. Time spent going to the bog, getting a coffee, having a chat with colleagues about how the war is going etc. - that's all time not spent on what you're being paid for. "hours spent" is a nebulous concept.

Well, yes you are. Time spent is only a nebulous concept if you're an idiot and/or looking to lie about time spent.

If you're working to deliverables and billing for deliverables, then there is no issue. If you're working to a time card and that time card doesn't reflect reality, then you're clearly in breach of contract.

I find it amusing how precious some people get, spouting on about fraud. Who, exactly, is being defrauded? Who will contact plod to investigate?

I find it amusing how some people get, spouting on about "plod" in a commercial context. Deceit is grounds for commercial fraud. As to the loss associated with it, that is a completely separate matter, probably best entertained by someone who can distinguish between criminal and commercial.

[NotAllThere]

How would you record them on your CV though? If you have two clients at the same time then any future client will see you have juggled two in the past? or do you just leave one off?

I simply recorded:
Jan 1997 - Dec 1998 FDB
Jul 1997 - Dec 1997 MI5
Nov 1997 - April 1999 Mossad.

Nobody ever got upset about it.

[NotAllThere]

If you are delivering to a T&M contract and invoicing against a time card, then you are literally billing for hours spent

Well, no you're not. Time spent going to the bog, getting a coffee, having a chat with colleagues about how the war is going etc. - that's all time not spent on what you're being paid for.

"hours spent" is a nebulous concept. In practice it's defined as (e.g.) 7.5 hours worth of work. I.e. the work that's expected to be done in 7.5 hours. If you do it in 4 - then good for you. I've known some companies where the purchasing department mandated a maximum price. To get the people they wanted, managers paid for 8 hour days, but the contractors worked only 4.

I find it amusing how precious some people get, spouting on about fraud. Who, exactly, is being defrauded? Who will contact plod to investigate?

[jamesbrown]

We are supplying services, not hours at a desk. You need to get that into your head it seems.

If you are delivering to a T&M contract and invoicing against a time card, then you are literally billing for hours spent and falsifying those documents is literally fraud. If you’re actually spending the hours invoiced or billing fixed price, fine, but it’s pretty clear that there are more chancers than not.

[malvolio]

I would hazard a guess you aren't giving 100% and a full 7.5 hours per day to each client which I am sorry but is wrong

It rather depends, doesn't it. If Lance is delivering what the clients need when they need it to the quality they require, what on earth has time spent got to do with it?

We are supplying services, not hours at a desk. You need to get that into your head it seems.

[WTFH]

Hi I also do 2 contracts ...im now looking for a 3rd...

The purpose of life is not to work...
At least not in my case.

I'd also not leave clients off my CV, particularly if you're in a sector where clients, employees and contractors tend to know each other.

[2contracts]

I have been thinking about taking on two contracts myself...

How would you record them on your CV though? If you have two clients at the same time then any future client will see you have juggled two in the past? or do you just leave one off?

Leave 1 off ...thats what I do