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Previously on "Fixed Term Contracts - what lunatics work on these ?"

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  • Peoplesoft bloke
    replied
    Originally posted by _V_ View Post

    What is the difference between a FTC role and an inside IR35 role, apart from one is direct with the client (FTC employee) and the other is via an agency / umbrella payroll?

    I guess the inside IR35 role is still business to business, where as the FTC role is business to employee directly?

    If I had a choice I'd take the FTC roles (at the same pay) rather than IR35 via a limited company.
    Inside IR35 means you are under direction and control like an employee would be, but you get no employee rights or benefits. There is zero point in an inside IR35 gig being a business to business relationship because the worker is being taxed and directed as an employee.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peoplesoft bloke
    replied
    Originally posted by eek View Post

    It probably relates to how the client views the role and where the budget is coming from.

    An FTC is likely to be an HR decision with the person being to all intents and purposes an employee.

    An inside IR35 contract moves things slightly as the money is probably coming from a project budget.
    Not in my experience. I only work on projects (or at least I did when I was contracting).

    The last client I worked at imposed a PSC ban and they issued anyone on the project who wanted one with a FTC.

    It was still from the project budget.

    I left because at the time I had the option carry on being an actual contractor.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lance
    replied
    Originally posted by TheGreenBastard View Post



    You're one of those weird pious permies in disguise who claim to be outside IR35 aren't you?
    The type who only went contracting to avoid tax. And before they did they slagged off contractors as tax-dodgers. That sort of piety?

    Leave a comment:


  • TheGreenBastard
    replied
    Originally posted by JohnM View Post
    Seen loads more FTC gigs appearing on job boards. Come on guys, who is doing these ?

    You get all the bad things about contracting ie no job securty, short term gig etc and all the bad things about permie ie low PAYE salaries

    Why would anyone work on a FTC ? I think they have got a cheek advertising these roles and they should be avoided like the plague, who is accepting these roles because you need to stop

    We all think IR35 is bad, imagine a world where nearly all the gigs are FTC
    Originally posted by JohnM View Post
    I would hazard a guess you aren't giving 100% and a full 7.5 hours per day to each client which I am sorry but is wrong
    You're one of those weird pious permies in disguise who claim to be outside IR35 aren't you?

    Leave a comment:


  • LondonManc
    replied
    Originally posted by Paralytic View Post

    Asking that makes about as much sense as "What's the difference between a peach and an elephant?"

    One is how a contractor engages with a client. The other is a piece of legislation that might change how a contractor engages with a client.
    No it doesn't. A client might no longer want to bother with inside IR35 gigs and use FTCs instead. In a time where private sector clients are preparing to take on the effort of assessing for IR35, they may have been advised that FTCs work out better/easier for them. Why should a client pay 12 months of contractor commission when commission on a 12-month FTC is less, for example?

    Client A might be "no PSCs, everyone via an umbrella"
    Client B might be more clued up on IR35 and understand what roles are inside and outside, applying appropriate contracts and working practices
    Client C might be PSCs for outside, FTCs inside
    Client D might be PSCs for outside, umbrella/agency payroll inside

    There isn't a standard approach to this and an FTC might be the only way at the moment to get work either for a particular client or at all. You also have far more rights via an FTC so that can weigh off against the higher rate of an inside contract. Both, ultimately, are non-permanent engagements at a client, but, for example, while you explicitly get holidays via an FTC, you are compensated for them in a contract's day rate.

    Leave a comment:


  • MonkeysUncle
    replied
    Originally posted by northernladuk View Post

    There is some odd stuff flying around about FTC's with day rates which they shouldn't be. That could either be some new beast to think about or it could be someone talking crap and getting it wrong.
    I am on one of these new beasts. They have taken my day rate x 260 (working days in the year), to give a yearly salary. As the FTC is for 9 months this has then been pro rata'd to 9 months.

    So that take home is almost similar to that of being on an outside contract. Given that it is all remote there is no additional travel expenses either. Throw in 19 days holiday (again pro rata) and all the benefits of a perm (life insurance, private medical, pension etc) its a good package.
    I am already aware if I take the perm the salary is lower and I happy with that (if I choose to take it).

    In terms of the work, so far so good its good. Opportunity to be in an industry I have never worked in before, got a good IT Team.

    Any holidays I take I need to get approved and I have a monthly catch up/review with my line manager (yes that is the correct term now!) but these are all minor details.

    Leave a comment:


  • northernladuk
    replied
    Originally posted by _V_ View Post

    What is the difference between a FTC role and an inside IR35 role, apart from one is direct with the client (FTC employee) and the other is via an agency / umbrella payroll?

    I guess the inside IR35 role is still business to business, where as the FTC role is business to employee directly?

    If I had a choice I'd take the FTC roles (at the same pay) rather than IR35 via a limited company.
    FTC is a contract of employment. The rate will be a wage pro rata so should be way less than contract that is inside IR35. Two completely different beasts and I think a lot of people are forgetting this. The IR35 contract should be on a rate card which is different to the FTC wage. The IR35 contract hasn't changed, it's just the tax position. To the client it should be the same as the old ones as your tax situation didn't used to be their problem. It is now as they have to make the determination. All they are doing is giving their opinion on the engagement where historically it was yours. It's still a short term B2B contract to deliver. FTC is a way of taking on employees.

    There is some odd stuff flying around about FTC's with day rates which they shouldn't be. That could either be some new beast to think about or it could be someone talking crap and getting it wrong.

    I think when you start seeing the pro rata wage rates on FTC you'll change your mind.

    Leave a comment:


  • eek
    replied
    Originally posted by Paralytic View Post

    Asking that makes about as much sense as "What's the difference between a peach and an elephant?"

    One is how a contractor engages with a client. The other is a piece of legislation that might change how a contractor engages with a client.
    It probably relates to how the client views the role and where the budget is coming from.

    An FTC is likely to be an HR decision with the person being to all intents and purposes an employee.

    An inside IR35 contract moves things slightly as the money is probably coming from a project budget.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paralytic
    replied
    Originally posted by _V_ View Post

    What is the difference between a FTC role and an inside IR35 role, apart from one is direct with the client (FTC employee) and the other is via an agency / umbrella payroll?
    Asking that makes about as much sense as "What's the difference between a peach and an elephant?"

    One is how a contractor engages with a client. The other is a piece of legislation that might change how a contractor engages with a client.

    Leave a comment:


  • _V_
    replied
    Originally posted by Peoplesoft bloke View Post
    Personally I would never take an inside IR35 gig. Lucky for me since all the outside gigs dried up I got a perm role, but if all I had on offer was a FTC I'd certainly consider it. I would never consider working inside IR35 - that is the real area we need to try to stamp out IMHO.
    What is the difference between a FTC role and an inside IR35 role, apart from one is direct with the client (FTC employee) and the other is via an agency / umbrella payroll?

    I guess the inside IR35 role is still business to business, where as the FTC role is business to employee directly?

    If I had a choice I'd take the FTC roles (at the same pay) rather than IR35 via a limited company.

    Leave a comment:


  • Whorty
    replied
    Originally posted by JohnM View Post

    I think you are trying to kid yourself with the 15K more comment, trust me NONE of the FTC on jobserve or total jobs I have seen are anything iike 15K more than perm, most almost identical to similar perm roles
    It's really simple then, don't take one. FTCs have been going for donkey's years, some people don't mind them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Whorty
    replied
    Originally posted by JohnM View Post

    Yes but what reasons are there for a contractor to do one over a normal contract or a perm role, that is my point
    - because you want/need the work
    - because the location is right
    - because the company is right
    - because there may be training/new tech
    - because you want a perm job there and this is a good way in

    Lots of reasons. I've done 3 over the years for a number of reasons and enjoyed them. Pay isn't as good as day rate for sure, it's not always about money is it? All 3 offered me a perm towards the end of FTC period - I turned them all down as I didn't want to be a permie.

    It's not all black and white.

    Leave a comment:


  • Amanensia
    replied
    I'm on FTC. First non-Ltd role in the last twenty years. New contract early last year with a client whom I have worked for in the distant past, but not in the last decade. They initially wanted to offer "outside" roles but their legal dept kicked that into touch so they asked what I and several others would need to make FTC work.

    We calculated the FTC salary that would result in a neutral take-home package compared to "proper" contracting, including allowing for the fact that we'd need to be paying our own expenses out of post-tax income etc. Obviously this came in massively outside their salary scales but as it's a huge regulatory project and they had no other way of resourcing it, they eventually agreed. No pastoral or objective-setting nonsense either.

    Just renewed for another six months - and given that it's ended up being 100% from home, I'm actually better off than I would have been going via Ltd. Couldn't be happier - although that's only because they are stumping up proper cash.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peoplesoft bloke
    replied
    Personally I would never take an inside IR35 gig. Lucky for me since all the outside gigs dried up I got a perm role, but if all I had on offer was a FTC I'd certainly consider it. I would never consider working inside IR35 - that is the real area we need to try to stamp out IMHO.

    Leave a comment:


  • ladymuck
    replied
    Originally posted by JohnM View Post

    I am seeing .net 6-12 month FTC contracts at £40-50,000 per annum

    Its a p*ss take mate, pure and simple, people trying to kid themselves the are the same as perm roles are deluded, these will have a far bigger negative impact than IR35 if they become common place because people continue to accept them and work on them

    If they want you short term tell then to pay contract market rates, if they want to pay you a perm salary offer you a perm roll

    FTC under a year in length are wrong, if you are working one of these you need to have a word with yourself
    Things are not as black and white as you would like them to be. FTC fill a need and there are many people glad of the work they provide.

    You don't like them, that's fine, but you're not going to get much more from this thread I suspect.

    Leave a comment:

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