Reply to: rate reduction after interview

[billybiro]

Yes, but, have you ever wondered why businesses insist on using agents?.

Easy. Many organisations think themselves too busy to filter and headhunt. They don’t perceive the value of hiring well or the damage a few sleazebags can do to their reputation. Recruitment consultants promise to make the hiring problem go away and many companies – particularly lazy ones – soon grow dependent upon them.

[GreenMirror]

There's no point building loyalty with someone who's happy to shaft you from the start. Play them at their own game and happily explain that the rate reduction before starting is the reason for leaving.

I think you should have stopped after the 5th word. I have seen plenty of places appear loyal but shaft you suddenly and mercilessly. And why not? Its a contract.

As BB said - be unemotional.

[vwdan]

There's literally nothing in it for the agent. If you lose money, so do they.

To be honest, you need to just be humble and accept that after the interview you're not as polished as they thought you were (from your CV), but they still want to give you a chance. A chance I would take.

I see a lot of bad advice on these forums. Arrogant people, with nothing but hostility, who basically think the employer is their enemy.................and then they wonder why they're bouncing around from contract to contract.

Like, things like networking, charm, communication, people skills? They're really the basics of business. What are you going to get from being hostile to recruiters, and businesses?

And I suspect the successful contractors understand this.

Matt, I know you're new here but all of the advice you post seems to be absolutely awful and doesn't seem to be based on experience. What is your contracting experience? Do you actually run a Ltd Co and manage your accounts yourself?

Edit: Oh, totally missed this:

So, I’ve basically been a permanent employee for my entire career, but get approached by a company on LinkedIn offering me lucrative contracting work.

So, no, you don't. But you're going around telling other new contractors to spin up a Ltd Co for fun, do their own accounts because it's easy and attempting to re-educate the more experienced contractors on client relations and agency tricks. I'll say this nicely - get a grip and wind your neck in. You're dishing out advice far above your competence and I suggest you spend a lot more time listening and learning then you do attempting to hand out your misinformation.

[uk contractor]

Yes, but, have you ever wondered why businesses insist on using agents?

I suspect it's because finding someone who can do the job is very easy. But finding someone who is going to fit into their business well, and fit into their business culture is very hard. And applicants need a heck of a lot of scrutiny.

You don't think IT staff need a heck of a lot of scrutiny, in regards to intangibles - people skills, communication, personality? They do.

You probably do not have much experience as it works both ways. Many end clients have terrible existing legacy staff with appalling communication skills, poor attitudes (especially towards contractors & their own company as they feel undervalued & underpaid creating a massive perception gap), inexperienced & arrogant line managers who hire & fire people just to demonstrate they have power over others & get rid of contractors sometimes for no real reason other than to hire their mates mate instead. Most of the demand for contractors is created by existing staff resource being so sub standard to begin with.

As for recruitment agents well the vast majority are sales based & that is their background shifting a product. Most do not understand even basic IT at all they only how to sell something for the right price (for them not the end client!). It would take a very long time indeed to list all their failings but in particular the following is pretty consistent with what is posted on here & many other contractors will back this up with their own personal experiences:

Lack of basic honesty.
Deceptive approach to references (many use this as an excuse to pester hiring managers or dishonestly gather business data from them).
Lack of basic professional standards.
Dishonest interview feedback (to favour the cheaper candidate).
Dishonest feedback to the end client when it suits them (to improve their profit margin as many know they will fill the role anyway so go with the best profit margin option).
Dishonest CV gathering for the end client where the agent usually favours the best price (for them not the end client) not the best candidate & gives the end client the wrong impression about who is available.

[Matt88]

Agents are wonderful, aren't they? I'm so glad they're such a huge part of our profession.

I mean, they never ever come between a contractor and a client getting a good service for a reasonable price, do they?

They never ever bad mouth contractors to clients after they've tried to stiff the contractor on rate at the final hurdle forcing the contractor to decline the altered offer leaving clients thinking that all contractors are horrible, unprofessional a*seh*les, do they?

Oh no. Agents truly are god's gift to the IT industry. Long may they continue to represent us.

Yes, but, have you ever wondered why businesses insist on using agents?

I suspect it's because finding someone who can do the job is very easy. But finding someone who is going to fit into their business well, and fit into their business culture is very hard. And applicants need a heck of a lot of scrutiny.

You don't think IT staff need a heck of a lot of scrutiny, in regards to intangibles - people skills, communication, personality? They do.

[Matt88]

There's literally nothing in it for the agent. If you lose money, so do they.

To be honest, you need to just be humble and accept that after the interview you're not as polished as they thought you were (from your CV), but they still want to give you a chance. A chance I would take.

I see a lot of bad advice on these forums. Arrogant people, with nothing but hostility, who basically think the employer is their enemy.................and then they wonder why they're bouncing around from contract to contract.

Like, things like networking, charm, communication, people skills? They're really the basics of business. What are you going to get from being hostile to recruiters, and businesses?

And I suspect the successful contractors understand this.

[billybiro]

The other is to negotiate hard. Note it has to be hard. You are going to have to refuse and tell them you aren't interested. Original rate or you won't accept. Problem is agents do this for a living and they've seen every wet attempt to push back so they'll know if you are bluffing. I suspect they've tried it on as they've already decided you are a bit of a soft touch so might be even harder.
Remember you are in a strong position though. Client wants you and the agent is going to make the money he wanted, he's just being greedy. Saying no means they have to go back to the client and basically lie to them why you don't want the gig and they get nothing until the second place guy comes on board so you hold all the cards really.
You've just got to convince the agent you're serious and he'll most likely fold.

This is a very real possibility and I've seen similar but I think experience tells us a vast majority of cuts after interview are from the agent.

It could also be the agent trying to demonstrate to the client that they can't get what they want for the money on offer - "you're not going to get what you want for £300, but here's someone who will do the gig for £400". I've had my time wasted in a similar manner.

Few years ago one of the top 3 investment banks in London offered me a job in the actual interview as I was exactly who they were looking for team fit wise. The agency then backtracked their initial verbal offer by £20 a day thinking I would accept the lower offer due to market conditions. I declined as I know my value but they told the bank otherwise and I just trying to get more from them! All for the sake of £20 a day FFS! (20 a day then equated to around 550 a month extra due to the way travel expenses were deducted & HMRC FRS bonus). This bank was also one of the usual culprits who enforce rate cuts after a while so no way was I going in lower than agreed when a rate cut would appear sooner or later so I told them to stuff it where the sun never shines.

Agents are wonderful, aren't they? I'm so glad they're such a huge part of our profession.

I mean, they never ever come between a contractor and a client getting a good service for a reasonable price, do they?

They never ever bad mouth contractors to clients after they've tried to stiff the contractor on rate at the final hurdle forcing the contractor to decline the altered offer leaving clients thinking that all contractors are horrible, unprofessional a*seh*les, do they?

Oh no. Agents truly are god's gift to the IT industry. Long may they continue to represent us.

[LondonManc]

The decision should be unemotional, if you have several interviews on the go a the same rate or above you turn it down, if not and you estimate you would need about 1 - 2 months to get a new contract you accept, because that is the outcome that gets you the most income.

You can always look for a new contract before the next renewal.

Correct. There's no point building loyalty with someone who's happy to shaft you from the start. Play them at their own game and happily explain that the rate reduction before starting is the reason for leaving.

[BlasterBates]

The decision should be unemotional, if you have several interviews on the go a the same rate or above you turn it down, if not and you estimate you would need about 1 - 2 months to get a new contract you accept, because that is the outcome that gets you the most income.

You can always look for a new contract before the next renewal.

[LondonManc]

The only times that you generally find out if you've been stiffed by the agent are:
They give in too easily to a rate increase at renewal or
The client grumbles about how much they're paying for you and that turns out to be about double what you're actually getting - at least it is according to a couple of stories on here from the last couple of years.

[heyya99]

Happened me in my second contract. 'The client felt given my lack of experience, 25 pd less was the offer'. I was desperate and agreed with the agreement to review at renewal. I got the 25 back at renewal but I'm certain that it was a lie by the agent. I learned a valuable lesson and it hasn't happened since.

[northernladuk]

This not having happened to me and hardly ever (hooray) worked through agents this might be overly naive but... after rejecting the new rate and they come back to you and insist it's the client not them, can you ask for proof of that e.g. an email?
If they're on a fixed rate the point is probably moot since they would be cutting their own rate - unless the client is using multiple agencies (again is that common?)

Not really. What the agreement and rates are between client and agent have nothing to do with us. It's highly unlikely an agent will divulge communications between them both even if everything is kosher. You just have to negotiate and go as far as you are willing and see who blinks first.

Agency's tend to be in fixed rate because they are sole supplier and handle a lot of contractors. I'd be surprised if any client using multiple agencies has fixed commission agreements with any of them. It's unlikely there will be the volume of work to make it worth it for the agency.

[d000hg]

This not having happened to me and hardly ever (hooray) worked through agents this might be overly naive but... after rejecting the new rate and they come back to you and insist it's the client not them, can you ask for proof of that e.g. an email?
If they're on a fixed rate the point is probably moot since they would be cutting their own rate - unless the client is using multiple agencies (again is that common?)

[northernladuk]

It usually isn't the agent because they just want to close the deal and cutting the rate after the interview is the best way to lose it. However it is irrelevant who is responsible at the end of the day it's up to you, it's a negotiation. If you're not too worried about losing the contract then you can play hardball, if you're getting nervous because the market is tough, cave or go halfway.

I'd disagree with that. Rate chop at offer is a fairly common agency trick and it's the best time to stick it in and when the contractor is least likely to say no.

[tomtom]

"the rate is out of budget". Was it you or the agency who suggested that rate?

The agency told me this rate.