Reply to: No contract end date?

[malvolio]

Look at the sticky. The phrase I used was "anticipated end date". If you don't have an end date, you can't anticipate one. So claim up until either the 24th month or someone gives you a date. Worst case is you may have to pay back some over-claimed tax relief. Or you may get canned next week.

It's really not that difficult; don't overthink things.

[northernladuk]

My contract expired at the end of last month, but it is officially now ‘rolling’ as my useless recruiter likes to say.
The senior guy on the project is also a contractor, but he is recruiting for the client and told me the other day that a great contract candidate was offered a role but needed a end date on his contract, but ‘client doesn’t give end dates, end date could be tomorrow’ - then proceeded to laugh.

Anyway, less ranting, more to the point.
They’ve given me additional task and have asked me to help out with another project, which has meant more hours but same pay...should I ruffle some feathers and ask for more $$$

Client is far from relieable and would bat an eye at ending a contract

You want to sort your IR35 status out or leave IMO. Rolling contract? Assigned extra work not contracted for? Sounds more like a disguised permie role than a contract one.

[colonolcontractor]

My contract expired at the end of last month, but it is officially now ‘rolling’ as my useless recruiter likes to say.
The senior guy on the project is also a contractor, but he is recruiting for the client and told me the other day that a great contract candidate was offered a role but needed a end date on his contract, but ‘client doesn’t give end dates, end date could be tomorrow’ - then proceeded to laugh.

Anyway, less ranting, more to the point.
They’ve given me additional task and have asked me to help out with another project, which has meant more hours but same pay...should I ruffle some feathers and ask for more $$$

Client is far from relieable and would bat an eye at ending a contract

[Hobosapien]

To mitigate risk of an HMRC investigation and claiming expenses beyond the 24 month rule, simply give advance notice to client that you will be terminating the contract on the day before the 24 month rule is breached. So you now don't expect to be there for longer than 24 months.

Nearer the time if circumstances change and you do expect to be there longer, you stop claiming the expenses, like any one else that adheres to the 24 month rule. Just remember to revoke the notice previously given to the client, if they'll allow you to.

[northernladuk]

Turn the tables - say you were looking at a new purchase, like a house or a car, that requires a large monthly payment. Would you 'expect' this client to still keep paying you for that long? That may give the answer

Until it ends.

I don't really understand the scenario but remember this is HMRC we are talking about. With no end date the will pick the answer that suits them which is longer than 24 months. I must admit I can kinda get that as well, but that's my opinion and that's all it is.

The only safe thing to do is assume you are going to fall foul so don't claim anything. Keep all the receipts in case and if you do leave early stick it in, if you don't then nothing has changed. Claiming and getting caught having to pay 1000's back isn't the best move IMO.

[TonyF]

He's on an endless daily rate.

Until it ends.

[PerfectStorm]

The term HMRC use is expect, not know. With no end date on a long running project it's fair to say you'd expect to be there longer than 24 months as you have no evidence to the contrary. That's how HMRC will see it. If he does the above he'll claim up to 24 months and then have to pay the whole lot back, which many people wouldn't and leave themselves in a potentially risky situation.

Turn the tables - say you were looking at a new purchase, like a house or a car, that requires a large monthly payment. Would you 'expect' this client to still keep paying you for that long? That may give the answer

[northernladuk]

Contractor mental gymnastics aside, keep claiming - when you get within notice period of the 2 year point (should such a thing happen), stop claiming then. That’s the only way you’ll know, after all.,

The term HMRC use is expect, not know. With no end date on a long running project it's fair to say you'd expect to be there longer than 24 months as you have no evidence to the contrary. That's how HMRC will see it. If he does the above he'll claim up to 24 months and then have to pay the whole lot back, which many people wouldn't and leave themselves in a potentially risky situation.

[PerfectStorm]

Contractor mental gymnastics aside, keep claiming - when you get within notice period of the 2 year point (should such a thing happen), stop claiming then. That’s the only way you’ll know, after all.,

[colonolcontractor]

Spoke to the agency, but they’ve been useless at getting anything done. So I’ve approached the contact rep at client (who agency had spoken to before on my behalf, in the past).
Agency have finally got back to me after speaking to contact rep, they’ve said it’s ‘ongoing’ and contact rep (who works for client) will ‘be in touch with you’.

[AnotherJohnDoe]

This is the fourth project I’ve taken on as a contractor in the last 5 years.
The contract duration was 5 months, but now the client has extended it..through the agency.
The agency hasn’t given me clarification on how long the extension is other than it’s ‘ongoing’ (so they have been told by the client)

Anyone been in this situation?
How do you prepare for your next position if the current contract is in a position of ‘rolling’?

The notice period can override the contract end date so it doesn't guarantee anything anyway
But I always ask for an end date
Even if the work is ad hoc the end client has to budget for it so I'm surprised yours is open
But an open ended contract could raise IR35 questions later down the line
So even if the end client isn't sure how long they need your skills, you're best getting the end date nailed down with the agency
If a contract is nearing it's end then I'll ask the agency to enquire about an extension and put the feelers out for other work. Projects do typically run longer than expected but there's no guarantee
I've had rolling contracts in the past as low as a month when starting with a new end client as these days it's usually all decided on a single phone call so there's a lot of risk for the end client
But I've learned to just accept that as par for the course and budget for it

[northernladuk]

You may be working to a set of deliverables and a plan with an end date at <24 months. However, I reluctantly accept you may have half a point for once - try telling HMRC it's a temporary workplace.

Why thank you very much. I think most likely risk is someone ends up breaching 24 months after claiming expenses for 2 years and either doesn't realise and carry's on or suddenly finds they have a massive amount of money they've got to pay back to their LTD pretty sharply. Money that will have been accounted for at the very least once so a right mess to back peddle.

[northernladyuk]

How can you reasonably expect anything when there is no end date? If there is no date then surely the only expectation you can make is it will breach it?

You may be working to a set of deliverables and a plan with an end date at <24 months. However, I reluctantly accept you may have half a point for once - try telling HMRC it's a temporary workplace.

[northernladuk]

I think the upshot of the thread is that an open-ended contract is neither an IR35, nor a 24-month rule, problem in it's own right...... but it does require more vigilance in the other areas.

I don't quite agree with that wording. If you had said the upshot is this alone does not affect the IR35 status but is a risk and the 24 month status is unknown would be better. The way you worded it reads to me they are OK and they are not. I think they are both problems in their own right, not failures maybe but problems.

The only safe option is to not allow this to happen and negotiate out of the situation.

[Lance]

Yes, unless he's left a paper trail that indicated he expected to stay longer.

If he stays past 24 months, the contract could and probably would be used against him to argue he never should have claimed expenses.

It's a thin basis on which to label someone permietractor, though. He's only been there five months. Perhaps the client got fed up with the hassle of getting extensions approved and just wants the contract to run until the project is done.

Indeed.
It does make it more difficult if, once the project is finished and there's another project to do, which you want to do; as they may not want the hassle of issuing an updated schedule. If that's the case then you are becoming part and parcel.

I think the upshot of the thread is that an open-ended contract is neither an IR35, nor a 24-month rule, problem in it's own right...... but it does require more vigilance in the other areas.