Reply to: Personal bio requested for team presentation

[malvolio]

You mean the JLJ case?

Ahhh, yes, cough, splutter...

[Lance]

Depends on the type of meeting. No problem with going to meetings that might cover what you are doing then move onto other things but I refuse point blank to go to meetings where they discuss the long term future of the company.

Oh absolutely. I just delete the invites (don't send a decline as that is a bit rude). They shouldn't be inviting 3rd parties to those at all. It's probably an oversight by the inviter.

[SussexSeagull]

I go and don't say much. They don't go on my time sheet, and are not on any schedule or invoice.
If ever challenged it is simply a case of 'in case any H&S updates or governance/compliance changes I need to know about'.
I may have it wrong but I also consider it bad business to be seen to refuse these.

Depends on the type of meeting. No problem with going to meetings that might cover what you are doing then move onto other things but I refuse point blank to go to meetings where they discuss the long term future of the company.

[northernladuk]

Problem is that I am finding more and more than contractors are happy to go along to (non project related) team meetings and the like and when you refuse to go you look miserable and uncooperative.

I am sure it is taking into consideration come renewal time so you are left with the choice of trying to stay out of IR35 or taking the risk to keep the client happier.

Sadly I know what you are talking about. As contractors are now the defacto standard way to resource projects every man and his dog has jumped on the bandwagon so we have raft of permacontractors that have no real idea about what they are doing. It's only going to get worse until HMRC find something that sticks. At that point there will a be a lot of very surprised and unhappy people. The Public Sector changes will be a perfect example of this. It's 5 months off and the number of people that don't know it's coming at all let alone understand it it frightening.

[Lance]

Problem is that I am finding more and more than contractors are happy to go along to (non project related) team meetings and the like and when you refuse to go you look miserable and uncooperative.

I am sure it is taking into consideration come renewal time so you are left with the choice of trying to stay out of IR35 or taking the risk to keep the client happier.

I go and don't say much. They don't go on my time sheet, and are not on any schedule or invoice.
If ever challenged it is simply a case of 'in case any H&S updates or governance/compliance changes I need to know about'.
I may have it wrong but I also consider it bad business to be seen to refuse these.

[SussexSeagull]

The issue is a little thing called IR35.

Problem is that I am finding more and more than contractors are happy to go along to (non project related) team meetings and the like and when you refuse to go you look miserable and uncooperative.

I am sure it is taking into consideration come renewal time so you are left with the choice of trying to stay out of IR35 or taking the risk to keep the client happier.

[northernladuk]

I don't understand what’s the issue!!!

You can do a bio but it's not required for contractors, with is, they are given you an opportunity to feel part of the organization.
In my opinion this is very important to "break the ice".

In one of my previous contracts I was always invited for their activity days, happy hours... etc... and of course, introduce myself on my first day.
This is common sense for me.

The issue is a little thing called IR35.

[Bee]

I don't understand what’s the issue!!!

You can do a bio but it's not required for contractors, with is, they are given you an opportunity to feel part of the organization.
In my opinion this is very important to "break the ice".

In one of my previous contracts I was always invited for their activity days, happy hours... etc... and of course, introduce myself on my first day.
This is common sense for me.

[northernladuk]

It was defined in the SLS case rather nicely, where the contractor switched to being under IR35 when they stopped giving him SoWs at each renewal.

You mean the JLJ case?

[malvolio]

Fascinating...

"Part and Parcel" basically means you can be shoved anywhere to do anything and the management don't have to give you a specific task to deliver. It doesn't mean you have to be some kind of superior entity divorced from the people around you, merely that you have a specific role to fulfil and can refuse any other one.

It was defined in the SLS case rather nicely, where the contractor switched to being under IR35 when they stopped giving him SoWs at each renewal.

[kaiser78]

Exactly, but if you're an intrinsic part of a "team" containing permanent staff, and there's multiple people on that team performing largely the same role (developer, BA, PM etc.) then you are almost certainly delivering the same thing as one or more of the permies. Then what?

Same goal maybe but different deliverables, which is a key distinction. As a PM working on a project my role and deliverables would be totally different for example to say the Architect, BA, Developer, Test functions on the same project.

The notion that one should not be part of project team because one is a contractor is wide of the mark.

[NotAllThere]

I'm not sure you are. Are other external professionals required to provide this kind of thing? Does the photocopier repair man have to provide a "bio" when he comes on site?...

Twaddle for three reasons.

1. It would be perfectly normal for the photocopier repair man to introduce himself to the permie he's working with, with a brief description of his skills, even if it's limited to "Hi, I'm Billy Biro, and I'm here to fix your photocopier". The bio is appropriate to the amount of interaction the external will have and the level to which he's working.
2. You'd find your work extremely difficult to do if you never introduced yourself, formally or informally, to the people you'll be working with. You're not coming in to clear a drain blockage - your work means you're obliged to interact rather more with the permies. Personal introduction is "part and parcel" of that.
3. The external consultants from big-co also give personal introductions to the project team.

[WTFH]

Exactly, but if you're an intrinsic part of a "team" containing permanent staff, and there's multiple people on that team performing largely the same role (developer, BA, PM etc.) then you are almost certainly delivering the same thing as one or more of the permies. Then what?

Then you're not really a contractor.

[billybiro]

Sorry, billy, I disagree. If a team is being assembled to deliver a project, then it's part of the project team. The copier repair man is not part of a project.

It would be a different kettle of fish if your contract says your job is to provide support for anything and you are not actually delivering anything different to the permies.

Exactly, but if you're an intrinsic part of a "team" containing permanent staff, and there's multiple people on that team performing largely the same role (developer, BA, PM etc.) then you are almost certainly delivering the same thing as one or more of the permies. Then what?

[SueEllen]

Really? So being a contractor on a team full of permies where you're doing essentially the same job as the permies (as is the case in an agile software development team, for example) is absolutely fine from IR35 perspective is it?

Please, do tell how you'd convince Hector that you're absolutely not part and parcel and should be considered to be entirely different from the permies that work for the same client.

You are incorrectly presuming that people in teams all do the same role. Many teams are made up of people in different roles with different skill sets, and as in Agile teams the teams are self-organising e.g. you are proactive then you don't fall under IR35.