Reply to: State of the Market

[dsc]

Tried that once at the police state that is Vodafone. Perm role, I was getting on great with the line manager.

Problem was there was also a Human Refuse lady in the room. And of course she had to pipe up about my contracting CV, and at the end asked, 'What guarantee can you give that when the market picks up, you don't leave and return to contracting?' Well, it was at this point I knew she wasn't going to let it go no matter the stupidity of her question. So I asked her, 'What guarantee can you give me that you will never make me redundant?'

To which she replied, 'Well, that is not our concern.'

Deary me. Really?

At least she was honest and yes it's not their concern, the thing is having someone good wanting to go from contract to perm is like a blessing, there's no costs attached, no research, you don't have to do job interviews etc. Besides what stops a good perm from jumping ship and moving to another company? It's a retarded way of looking at it, but one that I've witnessed myself in my current contract...

[simes]

I've had a couple of calls from agents who seem to be sorting out their bank of available contractors; I presume in the hope that post-budget there will be work coming

And what a colossal waste of time that is. Would not their time be better spent finding clients??

Unless it comes across, I detest those calls. Pointless.

[simes]

How do you get perm work after contracting for decades???

Anyone has any success?

Applied for lots but nothing …they seem to not want contractors and want career perms.

any tips?

Tried that once at the police state that is Vodafone. Perm role, I was getting on great with the line manager.

Problem was there was also a Human Refuse lady in the room. And of course she had to pipe up about my contracting CV, and at the end asked, 'What guarantee can you give that when the market picks up, you don't leave and return to contracting?' Well, it was at this point I knew she wasn't going to let it go no matter the stupidity of her question. So I asked her, 'What guarantee can you give me that you will never make me redundant?'

To which she replied, 'Well, that is not our concern.'

Deary me. Really?

[dsc]

[...]
The main issue I have with being a permie is that there is no reward for how hard you work. I get paid the same regardless and lots of my colleagues take full advantage of this.

Can be the same when contracting, previous contract I did I worked with several other contractors who were clueless in areas where they really should've known and later it turned out they were on higher rates than me. The thing with perm is, you can simply not work hard, do the bare minimum and get paid the same as others, harder to do in a contractor roles imho.

[quackhandle]

The old tech is still about, just read a gig spec for a Visual Basic Developer.

qh

[coolhandluke]

I contracted for just under 10 years and jumped to perm just after Covid. Some agents seemed reluctant to put me forward for perm positions but I never got any negative feedback from the employer.

To be honest I really wished I put more effort into building relationships with clients and carried on contracting. I naively thought I would be able to get a new contract easily but the last IR35 update and the move to consultancies and of course Covid seems to have almost destroyed the market for my skillset.

The main issue I have with being a permie is that there is no reward for how hard you work. I get paid the same regardless and lots of my colleagues take full advantage of this.

[edison]

How do you get perm work after contracting for decades???

Anyone has any success?

Applied for lots but nothing …they seem to not want contractors and want career perms.

any tips?

Realistically there are only two paths to go from contract to perm once you're past your mid-40s.

The easiest is to convert from contractor to perm at an existing client. I was twice offered a perm role I was doing as an interim at age 48 and 51. Both times I turned the role down.

At 48 it was due to too low a package offered and at 51 I thought I would get bored with the role. I really regret turning down the Head of IT role at 51 as it was just before Covid and I've had two long spells on the bench since. Hindsight is wonderful of course.

The other way is through a referral to the hiring manager/HR. Same as any role advertised really, an introduction can really hep get your foot through the door.

FWIW I know several long term contractors (10 years plus) in their mid-40s to early 50s who've gone perm in the last year, most converting from a contractor. Sometimes it's just a case of being in the right place at the right time.

[SussexSeagull]

In reality, and with 25yrs of IT experience, I can say it's not worth much tbh.

25yrs of experience just says, I have worked on old systems. Probably not what the client wants.

In the last 5yrs, I have been quite lucky that I have been exposed to the latest tech. That in essence is worth more than having dinasor experience in old languages that everyone has stopped using.

I really try to keep current, very difficult with IT, but having experience Vs having the latest tech, especially with permi roles, the client will always chose latest tech.

Contracting, might get way with having worked on something previously but those days are getting fewer and non-existent. One example, is SharePoint, I have loads of dev experience but then who uses it now? And if I do find a client that is still using it, would I want to then invest further time into it?

Real world means we should always be looking to add to our toolsets, we have to be our own salesperson and demonstrating that we have new, fresh ideas and approaches whilst still having a wealth of experience has usually helped.

Although saying all that, I have had 1 interview this month which did not go well. They have even reached a ceasefire in the ME with me still not finding a contract.

I have been going over 25 years which has gone from green screen terminals, networked PCs, the rise of the internet through to mobile phones. All of these were new once and all picked up by me and others. Plus age isn't a barrier to picking up new tech.

[t0bytoo]

The questions are not easy to solve. They usually require some planning and investigation in order to solve the problem.

For example, please write a web service that will accept a JSON input comprising of apples and oranges. Return a JSON object comprising the total number of oranges squared and added to the total apples which are green.

Usually not something we're the entire test can be googled or ai....

I pasted your example into Claude AI and got some commented code with error handling and some sample test data. Easily good enough to submit to a 'tech test'

[SchumiStars]

In reality, and with 25yrs of IT experience, I can say it's not worth much tbh.

25yrs of experience just says, I have worked on old systems. Probably not what the client wants.

In the last 5yrs, I have been quite lucky that I have been exposed to the latest tech. That in essence is worth more than having dinasor experience in old languages that everyone has stopped using.

I really try to keep current, very difficult with IT, but having experience Vs having the latest tech, especially with permi roles, the client will always chose latest tech.

Contracting, might get way with having worked on something previously but those days are getting fewer and non-existent. One example, is SharePoint, I have loads of dev experience but then who uses it now? And if I do find a client that is still using it, would I want to then invest further time into it?

Real world means we should always be looking to add to our toolsets, we have to be our own salesperson and demonstrating that we have new, fresh ideas and approaches whilst still having a wealth of experience has usually helped.

Although saying all that, I have had 1 interview this month which did not go well. They have even reached a ceasefire in the ME with me still not finding a contract.

[quackhandle]

I got my last gig because I was old - i.e. experience.

Yes, it needs a bit of luck but it does happen.

qh

[hobnob]

How do you get perm work after contracting for decades???

I've been offered permanent roles when I've done inside IR35 contracts. I.e. I've gone in as a contractor, and they've said "Would you like to stay here long-term?" I've turned them down, but that's one way to get your foot in the door.

[willendure]

How do you get perm work after contracting for decades???

Anyone has any success?

Applied for lots but nothing …they seem to not want contractors and want career perms.

any tips?

My Dad did it when he was at least 65. Worked as a contractor since around age 30. He was a chartered engineer and went to a job fair, got talking to someone who sized him up for a perm role as head engineer. Just a single data point of course, but suggests that establishing some kind of personal connection is going to help, and some kind of position that would need your maturity and experience. I think there are openings like this, especially when you consider that the boomers are a big generation now fading into retirement, that has to leave some senior holes in the workforce to aim for.

[Cookielove]

My CV is condensed to 2 pages it’s not the CV it’s the fact that age and experience ain’t valued…

A lot of the hirers are in their 30s/40s and they don’t necessarily want people that know more than them so they won’t hire “experience” they go for cheaper and less experience…

Perm is becoming impossible as lots of places anti contractors …even though you could do the job and some ….

[SussexSeagull]

For sure, but there's also a fair amount of bums-on-seats type of "contractors" who aren't worth half the money they are paid. The amount of times I've heard "it's so hard to find a good contractor" is ridiculous and I've also worked with loads of pretty mediocre people costing clients loads of money. Sure you can easily have a proper job interview and check if someone is good or not, but why bother if you can get a 30-35yo who has 10yrs in the latest tech and works for half the money the contractor wants?

I'd say it really depends on your experience with contractors, it's like you often see when there's a re-org and you suddenly get someone who's anti-contractor and sacks the lot, or someone who's very pro-contractor and takes on even more of them knowing damn well they all can get the boot when the job is done (and done well if you have the right people).

Problem is a lot of clients don't want decent contractors who will contribute to the success of a project while trying to avoid internal politics, don't have the distraction of career progression and can speak with authority and candour when necessary before leaving after the work has finished.

Most have decided the way they do it is best and can't be improved by anyone with recent experience. Plus any of the technical disciplines just seem to be a tick list of technology and frameworks which you need to get through before they even think of looking at the actual person and soft skills.

There are a lot of really good contractors out there. It's just I don't think they are getting a look in anymore.