• Visitors can check out the Forum FAQ by clicking this link. You have to register before you can post: click the REGISTER link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. View our Forum Privacy Policy.
  • Want to receive the latest contracting news and advice straight to your inbox? Sign up to the ContractorUK newsletter here. Every sign up will also be entered into a draw to WIN £100 Amazon vouchers!
Collapse

You are not logged in or you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

  • You are not logged in. If you are already registered, fill in the form below to log in, or follow the "Sign Up" link to register a new account.
  • You may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
  • If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

Previously on "State of the Market"

Collapse

  • SussexSeagull
    replied
    Originally posted by eek View Post

    I know the purpose of exploratory testing - but that really should be in addition to rather than instead of scripted repeatable system..
    Exactly. I read one expert who suggested test scripts should be deleted once you are happy with the results so you approach the software with an open mind next time you test it.

    I seriously would have been shown the door in basically everywhere I have worked if I suggested that where it not for me never getting in the door when I suggested that at interview.

    Experience has taught me another trend will be along in time so don’t panic.

    Leave a comment:


  • eek
    replied
    Originally posted by SussexSeagull View Post

    I think a lot of the problem is people think Automated Testing is a short cut. While it is very powerful used properly, especially for regression testing, each test should have been manually run at least once and should have been based on a properly planned and scripted manual test.

    The other trend seems to be moving away from scripted testing to exploratory testing. Maybe I, and hence the organisations I have worked for, are showing their age but bar one or two start ups who weren't big on the whole structure thing, I don't think any of them would have been happy with me freestyling over their product for a few days then saying it is ok.
    I know the purpose of exploratory testing - but that really should be in addition to rather than instead of scripted repeatable system..

    Leave a comment:


  • SussexSeagull
    replied
    Originally posted by krytonsheep View Post
    I've noticed a lot of tech influencers on social media talk complete bollocks, but they'll get thousands of people liking their content. What happens when those people end up in the work place? Testing code for quality is a good thing to do.
    I think a lot of the problem is people think Automated Testing is a short cut. While it is very powerful used properly, especially for regression testing, each test should have been manually run at least once and should have been based on a properly planned and scripted manual test.

    The other trend seems to be moving away from scripted testing to exploratory testing. Maybe I, and hence the organisations I have worked for, are showing their age but bar one or two start ups who weren't big on the whole structure thing, I don't think any of them would have been happy with me freestyling over their product for a few days then saying it is ok.

    Leave a comment:


  • fatJock
    replied
    Originally posted by willendure View Post

    Having never worked inside IR35, this is something that confuses me when applying for inside roles.

    Some seem to quote the all inclusive day rate, from which employers and employees NI will be deducted from.
    Some seem to quote the gross day rate, from which employers NI has already been deducted.

    Its never really clear which is being discussed, and often employment agents don't even seem to know. For my own calculation purposes I just assume it will be the former, and then I will be pleasantly surprised if it turns out to be the latter.

    More recently I just stopped applying for inside roles at all. There are still more outside, and my business also has real expenses that would make inside suck even more.
    Yeah that's the kicker - you need to know the day rate being charged to the customer (Assignment rate) and the the umbrella can do a calculation showing the breakdown after it's been put through employer and PAYE costs. I use Clarity (very active on here) and their documentation and payslips etc is very good.

    Expenses are an issue but the two Umbrella roles that I have taken have been hybrid with a commute to the office once or twice a month which hasn't been an issue. Other general business expenses I'd be paying anyway whether I was in work or not so I tend to just accept that overhead. They've been longer engagements too so there's something to say for that given the current market.

    Current role I am in is a return to a customer I worked with six years ago where I was outside. They are very risk averse so although they got two options (outside at £x, umbrella at £x+20%) they mandate that all contractors are via umbrella. The 20% variance makes it there or there about when compare to Corp Tax / Divis etc and you can limit some of the taxation impact with pension salary sacrifice.

    I know people shy away from Umbrella but the numbers can work. LI is full of principled but benched people saying never to inside work - often bemuses me. Rather have what is still a very decent income than be living on toast and principles.
    Last edited by fatJock; Yesterday, 11:34.

    Leave a comment:


  • krytonsheep
    replied
    Originally posted by SussexSeagull View Post

    I was interviewed by two people who must have been 15-20 younger than me last year and some of the feedback was my views on testing were dated.
    I've noticed a lot of tech influencers on social media talk complete bollocks, but they'll get thousands of people liking their content. What happens when those people end up in the work place? Testing code for quality is a good thing to do.

    Leave a comment:


  • SussexSeagull
    replied
    Originally posted by willendure View Post

    +Competition from the younger crowd
    +Competition from the sheer rate of tech evolution invalidating your skillset
    +Competition from AI
    I was interviewed by two people who must have ben 15-20 younger than me last year and some of the feedback was my views on testing were dated. There was me thinking running a series of tests to measure the quality of a piece of software was fairly timeless.

    It will v are heavily from sector to sector but I think with AI it might be more business is holding off on major projects as they fear they might be out of date in a couple of years.

    Leave a comment:


  • GJABS
    replied
    Originally posted by willendure View Post
    Looks like I have a new contract, fingers crossed the onboarding goes without hiccup, I don't like to count the chickens until I actually start, or get paid for the first time, but seems likely it will all be fine. Outside IR35, £500/day, cloud solutions architect.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bluenose
    replied
    Originally posted by fatJock View Post

    They can (and do) in all but name. Currently have a day rate of X - working for Umbrella they get that, take off ER costs then fire that number through the PAYE machine - nett result, contractor is paying for ER NI in assignment rate.

    Most of us just bump the rate to end up with the same post PAYE NETT that we'd get when taking into account Corp / Divi Tax.
    Some EU tax systems allow you to write off UK employer nics off against your EU income tax bill (whatever country you are in).

    Therefore the perversion of this increase is that my income tax bill goes down as the NIC's bill goes up.

    Leave a comment:


  • jamesbrown
    replied
    Originally posted by fatJock View Post

    They can (and do) in all but name. Currently have a day rate of X - working for Umbrella they get that, take off ER costs then fire that number through the PAYE machine - nett result, contractor is paying for ER NI in assignment rate.

    Most of us just bump the rate to end up with the same post PAYE NETT that we'd get when taking into account Corp / Divi Tax.
    If you work through an umbrella, you're an umbrella employee and you're in roughly the same tax position as a regular employee. Employment costs are always passed through to employees and consumers. It's really no different than arguing about employers shafting regular employees for ErNI. It's a complete failure to understand that ErNI isn't "your money", it's a cost of employment. If you don't want to be an employee, then... work outside IR35 contracts. When you negotiate a rate or fixed price on an outside contract, you factor in the total cost of doing business. The same costs of employment apply, but you can choose not to employ anyone and shareholders can benefit from the distribution of profits. If you can't get outside IR35 contracts, then tough luck. But as you (ironically) note in your last sentence, you still have some power to negotiate your rate.

    Leave a comment:


  • willendure
    replied
    Originally posted by fatJock View Post

    They can (and do) in all but name. Currently have a day rate of X - working for Umbrella they get that, take off ER costs then fire that number through the PAYE machine - nett result, contractor is paying for ER NI in assignment rate.

    Most of us just bump the rate to end up with the same post PAYE NETT that we'd get when taking into account Corp / Divi Tax.
    Having never worked inside IR35, this is something that confuses me when applying for inside roles.

    Some seem to quote the all inclusive day rate, from which employers and employees NI will be deducted from.
    Some seem to quote the gross day rate, from which employers NI has already been deducted.

    Its never really clear which is being discussed, and often employment agents don't even seem to know. For my own calculation purposes I just assume it will be the former, and then I will be pleasantly surprised if it turns out to be the latter.

    More recently I just stopped applying for inside roles at all. There are still more outside, and my business also has real expenses that would make inside suck even more.

    Leave a comment:


  • sadkingbilly
    replied
    I just wait for the 'phone to ring.

    Leave a comment:


  • willendure
    replied
    Originally posted by SchumiStars View Post
    It does seem that this is no longer a blip in the market. This is how it is. Welcome to the new future.

    IR35
    Low rates
    tulip market
    Hybrid/office based
    Competition from outsourcing

    Suck it up star, keep running through.
    +Competition from the younger crowd
    +Competition from the sheer rate of tech evolution invalidating your skillset
    +Competition from AI

    Leave a comment:


  • willendure
    replied
    Originally posted by sadkingbilly View Post
    these coders don't half wine.
    This coder is having a wine or two.

    Looks like I have a new contract, fingers crossed the onboarding goes without hiccup, I don't like to count the chickens until I actually start, or get paid for the first time, but seems likely it will all be fine. Outside IR35, £500/day, cloud solutions architect.

    I have to say, despite all the pessimism on here and that I have also shared in - I don't think the market is actually quite so bad at the moment as it has been at specific points in the past. 2001 I could not find a job (didn't care I was in my 20s and having too much fun anyway). 2009 I could not find a job and I chased everything I could for about 8 months, even interviewing for roles in Switzerland and so on. This time around, its quiet for sure, and you see a lot more inside IR35 and some piss-poor rates especially considering the experience requested on the JD. But... once I got into it and started applying for everything I could it did not take long before 3 or 4 recruiters got in touch. 3 months on the bench.

    I could have been on the bench for 9 or even 12 months quite happily and would even have liked to do that because I have some projects of my own that I would like to bring to life. I was very keen to get off the bench though - because I am still of the opinion that a significant crash/recession is on its way, and Trumps tarrifs will only hasten its arrival. So I will take my war chest forward to a more suitable period for personal projects.

    My approach is to write out 4 or 5 versions of my CV each targetted towards different areas that I am capable in. Then I look at the jobserve feeds several times a day. If I see something that just about matches my skillset but I am not too serious about and think my chances are low, I sent the best matching CV and just leave it at that. My thinking is, there is a small chance they will call back, but even if they don't they will probably hoover up the CVs into their database anyway, so a future match is still a possibility. Anything that was a strong match, I followed up on by trying to get the agent on the phone, email or linked in. In the end it was one of the weaker matches that called me back with another role that matched my skillset better.

    I feel as a contractor I do aim to keep up with the times. I would like to get into AI, but not quite there yet. But in previous years I have done various cloud qualifications - not very sexy stuff now that its been around for a decade+, but still relevant and in demand.

    Leave a comment:


  • SchumiStars
    replied
    It does seem that this is no longer a blip in the market. This is how it is. Welcome to the new future.

    IR35
    Low rates
    tulip market
    Hybrid/office based
    Competition from outsourcing

    Suck it up star, keep running through.

    Leave a comment:


  • sadkingbilly
    replied
    you just got into IT too late.
    the best times were 80's and 90's.
    too bad.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X