Reply to: State of the Market

[malvolio]

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that I don't value PMs and BAs.. I really do.
Nor that the roles are completely gone, only that I'm seeing a _lot_ fewer of them these days. Particularly PMs.

It's normally people in these roles that I seek out first in new contracts. Often to find some useless Scrum Lord or SME in place instead.

I think they are fading in the development arena, as people are moving to Agile (proper agile, not pretendy Scrummaging), they aren't really needed and the BA is the key interface.

But the linkage between users and IT services is still business critical and that is best done by a PM. I agree I'm biased having done just that for over 10 years, but when I upgraded to service architecture, my key IT contact into the various silos was always a PM of some sort, even if they weren't labelled as such..

[TheDude]

The market has definitely changed but I still feel that good people, with a solid track record don't generally struggle to find roles .... and often through recommendation and or return to prior clients. If I was a developer I'd be more worried than I am as a PM which I can't see any problems with me eking out the next five years till retirement.

As a developer the hiring process has changed dramatically. Almost every firm will hit you with a barrage of Leetcode hard questions before any discussion of your experience and track record.

[Dorkeaux]

As someone who similarly has no issues in finding work as a role suggested to be in demise [Project Management] I think it's too broad sweeping to suggest roles have disappeared but I agree they have most definitely changed.

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that I don't value PMs and BAs.. I really do.
Nor that the roles are completely gone, only that I'm seeing a _lot_ fewer of them these days. Particularly PMs.

It's normally people in these roles that I seek out first in new contracts. Often to find some useless Scrum Lord or SME in place instead.

[TheDude]

If my view of ‘the market’ is correct, there are plenty of well-paid permy jobs out there for people between 25 and 45. The halcyon days of the contract market are long gone for generalists. My suspicion is that most on here are over 45, and may struggle to find permy work - either because of ageism in recruiting or cultural fit issues.

Cultural fit *is* ageism - it also covers every other discrimination they cannot legally use to exclude you from a job.

[ladymuck]

to understand when they tell you your project timescales are sh1te because the systems just don't work that way, you mean.

Or to understand if their claim has a basis in fact or because they want to string out the job

[sadkingbilly]

The niche I fill is the delivery of true technical projects which need a PM with technical awareness [to keep the techies honest].

to understand when they tell you your project timescales are sh1te because the systems just don't work that way, you mean.

[fatJock]

My 20 years contracting career has been as a non-technical BA. I currently have 3 concurrent gigs. Don't have issues finding work.

Being an old fashioned sort, I believe a BA is all about the business - the clue being in the name - what most BAs really are, are Systems Analysts but that title seems to have fallen out of favour.

As someone who similarly has no issues in finding work as a role suggested to be in demise [Project Management] I think it's too broad sweeping to suggest roles have disappeared but I agree they have most definitely changed.

I didn't start my career as a Project / Programme Manager but came from a technical background of infrastructure design and deployment. The niche I fill is the delivery of true technical projects which need a PM with technical awareness [to keep the techies honest] but also the soft skills to keep stakeholders engaged all while doing the comms and budget management. I don't seem to have a problem filling it with unsolicited contact from agents every couple of weeks despite being in contract.

The market has definitely changed but I still feel that good people, with a solid track record don't generally struggle to find roles .... and often through recommendation and or return to prior clients. If I was a developer I'd be more worried than I am as a PM which I can't see any problems with me eking out the next five years till retirement.

I've only been contracting nine years ... and when I started folks on here were saying it was knackered then.

[Dorkeaux]

Couldn't agree with this post more. I don't think the contract market will ever come back. Unless there is something major like Y2K, which is highly unlikely. But if you have specialist skills you will be fine but most of us don't. On ageism, I thought I wouldn't find a permie job at 55, was looking for last couple of years with rejection after rejection. But got one in the end and start in a couple of weeks. So there is some hope.

Have this hand-crafted tropical fruit:

[Protagoras]

On ageism, I thought I wouldn't find a permie job at 55, was looking for last couple of years with rejection after rejection. But got one in the end and start in a couple of weeks. So there is some hope.

That's really great news. Congratulations.

I must say that I think that this makes a lot of sense given the wider environment and hopefully the role will see you through to retirement.
You just need to be able to cope with the world of employment .

[avonleigh]

Congratulations!

Both you schumistars were benched for 2+ years. And both of you have found something recently.

I always used to say the UK IT job market and the FTSE 250 index were highly correlated.

After four and a half years, the FTSE 250 is almost back to new highs, just another 3% to go.

No I wasn't benched. Have worked continually since Covid. Just been looking for permie roles for long time whilst I was still in a contract.

[Fraidycat]

was looking for last couple of years with rejection after rejection. But got one in the end and start in a couple of weeks. So there is some hope.

Congratulations!

Both you schumistars were benched for 2+ years. And both of you have found something recently.

I always used to say the UK IT job market and the FTSE 250 index were highly correlated.

After four and a half years, the FTSE 250 is almost back to new highs, just another 3% to go.

[avonleigh]

It’s interesting to see how some roles morphed.

Once upon a time, the PM role was significant and there were many well paid jobs for PMI and PRINCE certified bods. It’s a separate discussion, but organisations wanted to embrace ‘agile’ and failed to integrate it with waterfall approaches to get the best of both worlds. I’ve seen some organisations trying to apply agile where it’s inappropriate given the work products. Someone mentioned MS Project and PowerPoint. In the good old days PMOs provided specialists to track and update project schedules and create effective presentations – and there were contractors working in these roles!

The difference between a business analysis and a systems analyst seems almost to be lost. To me, real value-add BAs focus defining problems and processes, plus they have great stakeholder engagement skills and can run workshops effectively. People call themselves BAs where really all their knowledge is about systems and solutions.

And whatever happened to the professional test bods?

If my view of ‘the market’ is correct, there are plenty of well-paid permy jobs out there for people between 25 and 45. The halcyon days of the contract market are long gone for generalists. My suspicion is that most on here are over 45, and may struggle to find permy work - either because of ageism in recruiting or cultural fit issues.

My big gripe with government’s prolonged attacks on the contract market is that it prevents certain people earning a living. This includes those who are older, disabled, and extends to those like myself who simply can’t function as part of a large organisation.

Couldn't agree with this post more. I don't think the contract market will ever come back. Unless there is something major like Y2K, which is highly unlikely. But if you have specialist skills you will be fine but most of us don't. On ageism, I thought I wouldn't find a permie job at 55, was looking for last couple of years with rejection after rejection. But got one in the end and start in a couple of weeks. So there is some hope.

[Protagoras]

It’s interesting to see how some roles morphed.

Once upon a time, the PM role was significant and there were many well paid jobs for PMI and PRINCE certified bods. It’s a separate discussion, but organisations wanted to embrace ‘agile’ and failed to integrate it with waterfall approaches to get the best of both worlds. I’ve seen some organisations trying to apply agile where it’s inappropriate given the work products. Someone mentioned MS Project and PowerPoint. In the good old days PMOs provided specialists to track and update project schedules and create effective presentations – and there were contractors working in these roles!

The difference between a business analysis and a systems analyst seems almost to be lost. To me, real value-add BAs focus defining problems and processes, plus they have great stakeholder engagement skills and can run workshops effectively. People call themselves BAs where really all their knowledge is about systems and solutions.

And whatever happened to the professional test bods?

If my view of ‘the market’ is correct, there are plenty of well-paid permy jobs out there for people between 25 and 45. The halcyon days of the contract market are long gone for generalists. My suspicion is that most on here are over 45, and may struggle to find permy work - either because of ageism in recruiting or cultural fit issues.

My big gripe with government’s prolonged attacks on the contract market is that it prevents certain people earning a living. This includes those who are older, disabled, and extends to those like myself who simply can’t function as part of a large organisation.

[ladymuck]

My 20 years contracting career has been as a non-technical BA. I currently have 3 concurrent gigs. Don't have issues finding work.

Being an old fashioned sort, I believe a BA is all about the business - the clue being in the name - what most BAs really are, are Systems Analysts but that title seems to have fallen out of favour.

[hungry_hog]

I think the demise of the PM partly comes from Agile taking off. In the old waterfall days you would need a PM to chase things along. The modern equivalent is probably the Product Owner, but that tends to be a more technical role requiring domain knowledge.
Some of the old PMs I worked with were more like General Melchett from Blackadder Goes Forth than technologists! Shouting and screaming at the lower orders. Beeeeeeaaah!