Reply to: State of the Market

[cojak]

If ever there was a thread that no longer did what it said on the tin, it’s this one.

I have decided to put it out of its misery.

RIP.

[GigiBronz]

The only ideology going on with agents and end clients is making money. It's up to governments and, with permanent employees, unions to try and balance the field not business entities doing what they were created to do.

It's a bit like swimming with sharks and complaining when they bite you. It's what they do. If you don't want it to happen don't swim with sharks or buy a shark cage but don't blame the sharks.

Unions are a red hearing most o the time, they just offer the perception of security while siding with the employer when a difficult case occurs.

I am not complaining, just putting out how I see things so that people get to think a bit more about them and make better decisions.
A person that is confident and has made peace with itself and the world around is less likely to be made a slave.

There is no free market for labour, the employer class makes the rules and conditions and you could either decide to happily give your labour or starve to death.
Slavery still exists, it only comes disguised in different forms. If you were a perm role in London, earn 80k but at the end of the year - if you get fired have only 2 months saved until you end up on the street - yes you are still a slave, you just don't recognise it.

Weather gov in cahoots with big businesses actively engage in market manipulation and pays an army of recruiters to not only try to see if you are suitable for a role but also undermine your confidence and demoralise you - yes I do believe that this also happens.

Why do you think diversity hires exist? It's not for the good of the minority - nobody in reality cares about that - it is for the perception and oppression of the rest. And they seem quite happy to pay for that. Cheaper than overall higher salaries.

[SussexSeagull]

<snip>

People should start to be more aware of the ideological games that are being played in the background, as in any other parts of life, there are two sides that always fight to move the equilibrium more towards their side. Whether it is the employee/employer relationship or contractors/agents/clients.
It is the same - one party will try to continuously undermine and demoralise the other party so it could get better terms.
With the fragile system that we are living in atm that would be an essential part for the working class to happily agree to sell its labour. And not revolt. (revolting is chaos, as tulipty the conditions are, the workers shall remain docile)
The weapon of the employer class is an army of uneducated sales people paid on commission that plenty of time they keep on their books to 'continuously cold call people without a role'. You should ask yourself also why that is.

<snip>

The only ideology going on with agents and end clients is making money. It's up to governments and, with permanent employees, unions to try and balance the field not business entities doing what they were created to do.

It's a bit like swimming with sharks and complaining when they bite you. It's what they do. If you don't want it to happen don't swim with sharks or buy a shark cage but don't blame the sharks.

[Fraidycat]

I feel like starting soon on 80-90% of what you'd like is better than spending weeks/months on 0% of it.

If you are stuck on the bench and being told by multiple agents that you are pricing yourself out of the clients budget then at some-point you need to cut your rate.

Although you are lucky you are getting calls from agents to discuss roles, many on here are currently not even getting those..

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

What do you do? I am still approached for roles although it is quieter than usual.

Data Engineer/Data Architect predominantly Azure. Can also do Data Migrations and the like.

[Bluenose]

I've played hardball in the past with mixed results - over the long term I'm not sure it's done me any good. I feel like starting soon on 80-90% of what you'd like is better than spending weeks/months on 0% of it.

Money and reputation are sometimes never linked.

Sure you could have taken a rate cut to get a role quickly but how long would you have lasted there and how high would have been your quality of work?

You can have an empty bank account but a near perfect track record.

You can have a full bank account and nothing but scorched earth behind you.

Back in the day, when the market was good, people would have no morals at all about downing tools on zero notice. These days the pool of places that engage contractors is much tighter than it was and reputation is not something you want to burn.

[GigiBronz]

Rate's aren't great at the moment. There's a shortage of roles and recruiters know. Getting a lot of "Maximum the client will pay is X, I've put things forward at higher before and they just get declined" - how do you field these? Is "never accept the first offer" good advice or do you burn weeks/months holding out for the last £50/£100?

Interested to know peoples thoughts on the psychology of this. I've played hardball in the past with mixed results - over the long term I'm not sure it's done me any good. I feel like starting soon on 80-90% of what you'd like is better than spending weeks/months on 0% of it.

I've never found the rate to be the deal breaker for being considered for a role.

You know what the market rate is, the agent knows what the market rate is. I can't see how an agent would try to push a significantly lower rate from the beginning without speaking with the client first and knowing what the project entails. Too many uncertainties.
Just do 'the dance' and never commit to an exact figure. Just quote £xxx depending on the final agreement, client, deliverables, timeframe etc. ask him for more details and do not let him take control of the conversation. Say a generic figure that is the market rate then continue with open ended questions and put the onus on the agent.

I don't think an agent will forcefully ask you to commit to a £500pd rate on you from the first conversation if his budget is £600-£650. Usually when that happens there is no role and he is doing it to undermine the other side. And it does not matter anyway as there is no role.

People should start to be more aware of the ideological games that are being played in the background, as in any other parts of life, there are two sides that always fight to move the equilibrium more towards their side. Whether it is the employee/employer relationship or contractors/agents/clients.
It is the same - one party will try to continuously undermine and demoralise the other party so it could get better terms.
With the fragile system that we are living in atm that would be an essential part for the working class to happily agree to sell its labour. And not revolt. (revolting is chaos, as tulipty the conditions are, the workers shall remain docile)
The weapon of the employer class is an army of uneducated sales people paid on commission that plenty of time they keep on their books to 'continuously cold call people without a role'. You should ask yourself also why that is.


For example when you see recruiters using a coordinated approach and acting in unison: Exactly how it is now with the permanent market and remote working. All the roles that I've been contacted about (which many I did not apply for) they all end the conversation shortly just after finding that you are not willing to go on site. Sometimes they bring the 'soft thong' and try to get you to re-evaluate your reasons for not wanting to go on site for a tulipty perm role.
It is coming from above and is a coordinated approach my all recruiters to get people back on site.

Same as the coordinated approach in banking for inside ir35 and 50% on site, they are all doing the same, blanket approach. Take it or leave it.

With the above being said. If for ex the rate gets cut at the final stage - then it is also a negotiation process - just continue asking open ended question. try to understand the best the other side and how to manipulate the situation.

If you asked for £600 but get offered £500 continue with open ended questions: "Pardon me for asking but is the agency on a fixed %?" "I would really want to work for the client and this sounds like a very exciting project but how could I agree to a rate that is significantly lower than market rate?"

The agent won't be able to get rid of you once he/she has the go ahead from the client. Now you have the upper hand in the negotiation. They do this 100 times a month so probably a lot better than you at negotiating, but still you have a very good chance.

Short books on negotiating:
Never split the difference - Chris Voss
Getting to yes - Roger Fisher
Working with emotional intelligence
etc.

And yeah, I always try not to compromise too much from the initial terms of the role search that I started with. Usually you find that there are many other things that you will have to compromise later on. A role paying 20% less you would most likely have other factors to compromise on.
If indeed the market is indeed very different than what you thought it is - then maybe you should pursue other avenues, plan B, C, D. You might be better off finding other options than willingly accepting a situation that would be subprime.

[WTFH]

Surely this is a joke?

Software Developer
Yeovil - £48.50 - £64.00 per day + PAYE/UmbrellaContractPosted by: Outsource UK

https://www.jobserve.com/gb/en/JobLa...gn=InstantJob2

The title is wrong.
It says HOURLY RATE in the ad, not per day (in the title)

Hourly Rate: £48.50 PAYE or £64.00 Umbrella

[brightondeveloper]

Surely this is a joke?

Software Developer
Yeovil - £48.50 - £64.00 per day + PAYE/UmbrellaContractPosted by: Outsource UK

https://www.jobserve.com/gb/en/JobLa...gn=InstantJob2

[TheDude]

Rate's aren't great at the moment. There's a shortage of roles and recruiters know. Getting a lot of "Maximum the client will pay is X, I've put things forward at higher before and they just get declined" - how do you field these? Is "never accept the first offer" good advice or do you burn weeks/months holding out for the last £50/£100?

Interested to know peoples thoughts on the psychology of this. I've played hardball in the past with mixed results - over the long term I'm not sure it's done me any good. I feel like starting soon on 80-90% of what you'd like is better than spending weeks/months on 0% of it.

Define 'hardball' - refusing to budge on rate? demanding an extra fifty on top? hostage taking/armed seige?

[ladymuck]

Rate's aren't great at the moment. There's a shortage of roles and recruiters know. Getting a lot of "Maximum the client will pay is X, I've put things forward at higher before and they just get declined" - how do you field these? Is "never accept the first offer" good advice or do you burn weeks/months holding out for the last £50/£100?

Interested to know peoples thoughts on the psychology of this. I've played hardball in the past with mixed results - over the long term I'm not sure it's done me any good. I feel like starting soon on 80-90% of what you'd like is better than spending weeks/months on 0% of it.

Because you don't know if the agent is telling the truth all you can do is make sure that any rate you get is at the very minimum going to cover your regular outgoings. I'm not saying you shouldn't push for more but knowing at what point you're operating at a loss helps you keep things in perspective.

If you know the going rate for your skill set is £300 a day more than that minimum and the agent is saying the client will only pay £150 then you know that your outgoings are covered and you just look to jump ship as soon as the opportunity arises. You might get an extension where a rate negotiation is possible.

I am rarely hung up on the day rate and see better rates as a bonus.

[PerfectStorm]

Rates aren't great at the moment. There's a shortage of roles and recruiters know. Getting a lot of "Maximum the client will pay is X, I've put things forward at higher before and they just get declined" - how do you field these? Is "never accept the first offer" good advice or do you burn weeks/months holding out for the last £50/£100?

Interested to know peoples thoughts on the psychology of this. I've played hardball in the past with mixed results - over the long term I'm not sure it's done me any good. I feel like starting soon on 80-90% of what you'd like is better than spending weeks/months on 0% of it.

[TheDude]

I've been lucky to be in continuous work since covid with a couple of self-imposed breaks. I've also done some additional work on the side on a few occassions which has helped to give me a small cushion. The biggest problem I see now is that the market is completely dead. I have a plan B well in motion now that manages to pay about 25% of my income but I still depend on contract work as my bread and butter. I've never seen the market so dead at this time of the year with basically zero calls from agencies, but I should be ok with my current gig for a few more months. I'm in the process of moving to the middle east as I'm of the opinion that Europe is basically dying and it's just a matter of time before we have a serious brain drain as there is nothing to really live for here anymore.

What do you do? I am still approached for roles although it is quieter than usual.

[Bluenose]

CS news clearly awful for FS market, quadruple whammy I would say:

1. Obviously no hiring from CS - was a major user of contractors in the Wharf
2. Probably less hiring from UBS as they absorb the CS people - another huge client
3. CS people out of work looking for roles therefore increasing competition
4. Affect on share prices in the sector and therefore hiring

On the plus side, contractors with experience of integration may be in more demand

The lessons from previous crisis is that when something goes bust, many contractor roles are lost.

When something is merged or, integrated, many contractor roles are created.

I think its the latter not the former.

[SussexSeagull]

Yeah, Jobserve currently showing 18,000 jobs, ten days ago it was 50,000 and that was a slow market already.

I hope the market picks up for everyone next month and its just a temporary blip.

The worrying thing is that the experts are predicting economic recessions and slowdowns for later this year. But the contract market, and even the perm market by the looks of those numbers, are already frozen.

So just how bad could things get later this year? I guess just a few thousand jobs listed on Jobserve, like it was at the start of Covid.

From my perspective it has notably slowed down in the last couple of days on Jobserve although the network is coming up with some good leads at the moment.