Reply to: Contract negotiation query...

[Bluenose]

Avgjoe: that kind of rate is usually reserved for someone who has been flown in from India on a Visa. Even then they get accommodation paid.

£400pd is bare minimum in Central London, most PM's take £450pd in London, £600pd if you are well connected and have good track record/experience usually anything above that is Programme Manager/niche PM territory.

[earningacrust]

+1 & if your a contractor OP you need to be very confident I do not get the impression your very confident if you were then you would know what to do instead of asking for advice on a public forum!

++1. and as a Contract PM in London with your experience, you should be asking for at least £450+ per day.

[cojak]

+1 & if your a contractor OP you need to be very confident I do not get the impression your very confident if you were then you would know what to do instead of asking for advice on a public forum!

No problem with asking for advice - that's the point of the professional forums.

[uk contractor]

Good grief - you DON'T negotiate, you just leave.

Sorry but you are not a contractor, you are a permie without the benefits.

+1 & if your a contractor OP you need to be very confident I do not get the impression your very confident if you were then you would know what to do instead of asking for advice on a public forum!

[AMH]

who's getting this £65k equivalent then?
The agency?
because it isnt you.

Someone is taking the piss here.

As for bereavement, was you being paid when you was off?

You owe them no loyalty.

[cojak]

OK, just to clarify I was never, ever on 65k perm. I started out at around 230 p/d and now am being offered 247 (they see it the same as 65k for a permie, not even sure how thats relevant though). I stuck with the job as they were a flexible company and I had a bereavement in the family that I had to sort out.

I've been arguing my case for 6 months, only to be told their evaluation of me is that 247 is fair rate. Although not senior, I'm a valuable part of their team (their words), have worked through many challenging circumstances and never say no/kick up a fuss - so definitely not a clock watching mug

Now, I just don't understand how best to explain to them that they are way under, esp. when they seem so confident that they're right?

Good grief - you DON'T negotiate, you just leave.

Sorry but you are not a contractor, you are a permie without the benefits.

[morf]

You are being well and truly shafted. Start looking elsewhere now for a rate at least double what they are offering.

+1 Worst case you should be on >£400 a day in London. How many years, do you have Prince2 / PMP etc?

[SeaBass]

You decide what you want to be here. Contractor or Permie?

If Permie, ask for a Permanent role with the company, complete with holiday pay, sick pay, pension etc.

If contractor, well, it's time to start applying for some roles that pay a decent rate.

Alternatively, stay where you are. They're taking the piss, mind.

[Sausage Surprise]

OK, just to clarify I was never, ever on 65k perm. I started out at around 230 p/d and now am being offered 247 (they see it the same as 65k for a permie, not even sure how thats relevant though). I stuck with the job as they were a flexible company and I had a bereavement in the family that I had to sort out.

I've been arguing my case for 6 months, only to be told their evaluation of me is that 247 is fair rate. Although not senior, I'm a valuable part of their team (their words), have worked through many challenging circumstances and never say no/kick up a fuss - so definitely not a clock watching mug

Now, I just don't understand how best to explain to them that they are way under, esp. when they seem so confident that they're right?

It's called negotiation and you must be prepared to walk.

[northernladuk]

I've a feeling the Op doesn't have a clue.

[jamesbrown]

seen as a core part of the staff... in other words, almost a job for life type thing.

Have you even heard of IR35? I hope that you're paying yourself appropriately. The above may be circumstantial, but it's very strong circumstantial evidence that neither you nor the client perceive this relationship to be one of independent contractor and client, but one of employee and employer. Since working practices are paramount, you'd have a hard time arguing anything to the contrary.

[TheFaQQer]

Thanks for all the replies so far...

Their other view is that I am on a longer term contract (6 months, expected to renew to 12) and seen as a core part of the staff... in other words, almost a job for life type thing. I understand some part of them as we have a good working relationship, but then having 2 weeks notice negates that altogether.

My initial response was to renew for a few months only in order to get my ducks in a row for a new opportunity...

They see you as a permie - make sure your IR35 insurance is up to date.

If they are saying that you are a core part of the staff, then they need to increase your rate to £450 a day to cover the additional tax and NI that you are going to have to pay, in the same way they would for a £65k permie.

Either get on their payroll, or leave before it gets any worse.

[avgjoe]

Either they are taking you a ride, or are genuinely stupid with the rate to permie comparison.

As for their contract length opinion.... you'll be out the door as soon as the budger tightens. Contract length is never guaranteed, so irrelevant in any discussion like this.

If you were comparing 2 contract offers, then you might use contract length as one of many factors in choosing between the 2.

Thanks - the permie comparison only came up yesterday hence my posting here as I was a little confused by it all.

I do accept I've been very naive though and that only I can rectify it all by being stronger. I stuck with it for a while as (1) they restructured and laid off permies but kept me and (2) had some family issues to deal with. So it is also my fault for not acting earlier.

[AMH]

sounds like they want to screw you.
if they want to compare £65000, then they should take into consideration holidays, etc.
assuming they have done 65000 / 52 = £1250 a week /5 = £250 a day

But what about statutory bank holidays? or if you want time off?
Better calculation would be 65000 / 46 / 5 = £280 a day & thats ignoring all the extra expense of accountancy fees, Employee NI, etc.

[jmo21]

Thanks for all the replies so far...

Their other view is that I am on a longer term contract (6 months, expected to renew to 12) and seen as a core part of the staff... in other words, almost a job for life type thing. I understand some part of them as we have a good working relationship, but then having 2 weeks notice negates that altogether.

My initial response was to renew for a few months only in order to get my ducks in a row for a new opportunity...

Either they are taking you a ride, or are genuinely stupid with the rate to permie comparison.

As for their contract length opinion.... you'll be out the door as soon as the budger tightens. Contract length is never guaranteed, so irrelevant in any discussion like this.

If you were comparing 2 contract offers, then you might use contract length as one of many factors in choosing between the 2.