Reply to: Lorien "We don't change our contracts in response to IR35 reviews"

[sunflower]

Some of the contracts Lorien has are 'time and materials' based. They are not for pieces of project work (that's the ideal to be outside IR35 - deliverables). You might see clauses that ' contractor will not make any personal phone calls outside of lunchtime or during the office hours'.
That would restrict you from running a business. Of course, you are there for a customer and do not abuse this. (Normally, if you were on a call to another client or your accountant, you would simply make sure you stay back longer to compensate and make up the lost 10 minutes here or there).

A commercial law specialist will tell you that if the agency can tie these stipulations on time and materials to security and data protection, even these clauses could look grey for an IR35 review. eg you are working on a secret project for public sector. You can only be in the office during office hours when the other staff are there in case you went snooping around after the permanent staff left to find information in an illicit manner.

Try to get to chat with someone in the legal department at Lorien before you ditch the project.

They seem very intent on not adding things to contracts there and it's harder to negotiate than with other suppliers, but try it.

Good luck sorting that out.

[Tasslehoff]

1 : Had contract reviewed by QDOS
2 : Sent failed review to Agent
3 : Revised contract was posted which I signed


All very easy and hassle free.

[DaveB]

In this case yes. Without dropping down into low level detail, some of the features and language of the boiler plate Lorien contract are at odds with the laid back attitude and office practices at the end client (known to be true as these were discussed during the interview).

If it's GDS (from that description) then existing contracts are still running under CIPHER but any new resources are brought in under CL1. Their hiring process is written up on a whiteboard in one of the office areas. The first line reads "Contact CL1 Team".

[7specialgems]

They altered their contract in March by issuing an addendum for me, after a QDOS contract review. Actually, I found them very good throughout.

In the end, I got my alterations in the same way.

Tip for others - have B&C, QDos et al deal directly with them in the first instance.

[vwdan]

I would be interested in seeing recent examples of that.

They altered their contract in March by issuing an addendum for me, after a QDOS contract review. Actually, I found them very good throughout.

[Avalonia]

I would be interested in seeing recent examples of that.

[SueEllen]

I've contracted through Lorien, they won't negotiate

They do - it depends on how you go about it.

[Avalonia]

I've contracted through Lorien, they won't negotiate

[ladymuck]

I had a contract with Lorien a good few years ago, not public sector, and B&C were partially successful in renegotiating aspects of the contract. There were a few clauses they absolutely refused to budge on but some they did tweak (albeit grudgingly). The important stuff was sorted so I let the rest slide.

[Tasslehoff]

So according to the agent I'm dealing with for a new gig through Lorien, since their contracts are template based, back to backed with the client and via a portal, they won't make any of the changes recommended by QDos in my IR35 review.

Just wondered if there were any people on here who are currently with Lorien via their web portal contract system thing and have had changes applied after any level of fuss.

As it stands at the minute, since this is a Public Sector gig, if I don't get the QDos changes in the contract, I'll be writing to the client to let them know that I really want to work with them and I am more than happy with the rate that has been agreed, but I am unable to agree terms with their agent.

Wow, talk about co-incidence. I am just staring with Lorien and I have just got of the phone to my Agent. All references came through and she mentioned she is now going to generate contract. I mentioned IR35 to which I got a similar answer, insisting that it was squarely outside IR35 and it was a "template". Obviously going to get it reviewed.

Will let you know how I get on.

[psychocandy]

If I had a £ for every time I heard that contract not negotiable crap. Most of them seem to try it on.

Having dealt with Lorien though they are one of the worse.....

Current contract that Im about to sign was a pass according to QDOS with a few recommendations.

Initially, with this one, agency asked me to sign straight away I said no I'd get it reviewed. They said no point its not negotiable.

So I got it reviewed anyway. Emailed them the comments anyway. Got email back saying ok our legal team are on to it.

Point being they all try it on. Ignore them and tell them what you want changed. If they still refuse then its a decision to be made.

In my case, these were just QDOS recommendations not a FAIL so not the end of the world.

[quackhandle]

+1 for the swerve of PS gigs, it's just so much faff and hassle and much of this is caused by the pimp who hasn't a damn clue.

They just think your being and idiot as you have got the gig and they have £ signs in their eyes.

qh

[TheFaQQer]

A JD for the BBC has just dropped into my email and I'm wondering if it's worth bothering to reply.

Despite the reasonable rate, I think that my previous post has the answer...

Whack up the rate, fill your boots. Trebles all round.

[cojak]

A JD for the BBC has just dropped into my email and I'm wondering if it's worth bothering to reply.

Despite the reasonable rate, I think that my previous post has the answer...

[TheFaQQer]

You'd be better off get someone like B&C to do the review and negotiations on your behalf.

If you've paid Qdos their £99 then they will do the negotiation for you. That said, if the agency won't negotiate then you're options are:

1) Accept the contract and declare yourself inside IR35
2) Accept the contract and declare yourself outside IR35 and rely on either not getting investigated, or being able to prove that the reality was different from the contract
3) Walk away and tell the client why

I'd go with 3 if it was me.