Reply to: 40 hrs minimum or 1/2 day rate penalty - never seen before

[d000hg]

It's not a penalty; you're being paid per half day. Don't do the full day, don't get paid for the full day. It doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me

I read it that if you do <40 hours, they pay you for what you've actually worked MINUS a half-day taken off. e.g. you work 4 days and they say "since you didn't work 5 days we'll only pay for 3.5". Did I mis-read?

[Contreras]

How many times have I read on this board, that if clientco is not giving you anything to work on, you should smile and keep invoicing?

Question is why are you still there if there is no work?

If the client knowingly has the option turf you out, but decides instead to keep you on site burning cash waiting for whatever resource is blocking progress because it makes sense to them, then it's their worry.

If the client feels contractually obliged to keep you on while there is no work and/or find alternative work for you, then yes it's an issue you should be concerned with and do something about it.

[malvolio]

How many times have I read on this board, that if clientco is not giving you anything to work on, you should smile and keep invoicing?

Loads. But it doesn't mean it's right.

[Quagmire]

Secondly, if you are happy to take on whatever manager throws at you I hope you're not claiming to be outside IR35.

Everything that is within my line of work of course. I am glad to see that you can decide what you do and what you don't do in your job, but poor devs need to actually resolve tasks assigned by team lead / manager or at least be able to cooperate with them to certain degree as far as prioritisation is considered.

Furthermore, if you can't work, why are you sat there doing nothing? You aren't being paid so go home, or down the pub or even sit in the car and read a book. One of the key IR35 cases was won precisely because the worker went home unpaid when the systems crashed while the permies were sat there waiting. Carpe diem, old boy...

How many times have I read on this board, that if clientco is not giving you anything to work on, you should smile and keep invoicing?

[malvolio]

OK, then I guess this depends on line of work and type of assignment. But if you finished your work in 3 hours, called it a day and even though there would be some more work to do later on in the day (that you will take care of the next day) - do you really still want to charge the full day?

In other words, isn't it also about availability? Just asking.

I mean I'm not doing anything right now - our systems are down. They probably won't be up before 5pm, but I'm still here, ready to pick-up anything manager wants me to (except for the broom, etc. etc.). And that is exactly what I will charge the clientco for. Am I a moron for not going home and charging the full day anyway?

edit:
Now that I think of it the availability thing sounds kinda permy

I'm always available during the week; I've taken calls at ten in the evening before now.

There is, however, a hidden assumption in your question and two big bullseye-shaped holes in your logic.

Firstly I don't get given stuff to do, I work with various client teams to deliver my own stuff, such as architected solutions to business problems or costed bid responses. Which team and to what extent is down to me, within the overall brief of ensuring that all teams have access to my skillset (not just mine, of course, there are a few of us). I decide when there's nothing else to be done; usually it's when I've done my piece and then have to wait for the reviews to come back, and I decide whether or not there is other stuff to be done that day. OK, perhaps I'm lucky and it took a long time to get where I am now.

Secondly, if you are happy to take on whatever manager throws at you I hope you're not claiming to be outside IR35. Furthermore, if you can't work, why are you sat there doing nothing? You aren't being paid so go home, or down the pub or even sit in the car and read a book. One of the key IR35 cases was won precisely because the worker went home unpaid when the systems crashed while the permies were sat there waiting. Carpe diem, old boy...

[Quagmire]

I get paid quite a lot to deliver stuff, to time and quality requirements (and in my case, it's not code). I don't get paid for being there and I don't get paid for time spent. I usually do deliver stuff on time and to quality and nobody has ever asked me how long it took me to do it. I fill in time sheets for payment in whole days only, and I complete the project time recording in 7.5 hour days but that's it.

A Professional Working Day is defined as "If I do any work for you in a given 24 hours period I will charge you £xxx". As soon as you start defining numbers of hours, it's not a PWD, it's an hourly contract with a limited maximum amount payment and no overtime. If that's what you want then fine, but I'm sticking to PWDs thanks.

And I've done 19 hour days when it's been necessary as well as 5 hour ones when I've finished what needed doing. The trick is to do more of the latter than the former.

OK, then I guess this depends on line of work and type of assignment. But if you finished your work in 3 hours, called it a day and even though there would be some more work to do later on in the day (that you will take care of the next day) - do you really still want to charge the full day?

In other words, isn't it also about availability? Just asking.

I mean I'm not doing anything right now - our systems are down. They probably won't be up before 5pm, but I'm still here, ready to pick-up anything manager wants me to (except for the broom, etc. etc.). And that is exactly what I will charge the clientco for. Am I a moron for not going home and charging the full day anyway?

edit:
Now that I think of it the availability thing sounds kinda permy

[MicrosoftBob]

That makes mine look reasonable, a minimum 37 1/2 for a normal working week, with anything less than 4 1/2 hours being a 1/2 day

In reality, when I turn up is when I want to turn up as long as the work gets done

Don't think I've ever got there before 11am on a Monday yet....

[malvolio]

I charge 0.5 days occasionally, which seems fair to both parties.

It's one option. OTOH I didn't charge a day last week since I hadn't actually done very much for a couple of days for various reasons outside my control. It levels out over time.

It's called "Professional" for a reason of course...

[Old Greg]

I get paid quite a lot to deliver stuff, to time and quality requirements (and in my case, it's not code). I don't get paid for being there and I don't get paid for time spent. I usually do deliver stuff on time and to quality and nobody has ever asked me how long it took me to do it. I fill in time sheets for payment in whole days only, and I complete the project time recording in 7.5 hour days but that's it.

A Professional Working Day is defined as "If I do any work for you in a given 24 hours period I will charge you £xxx". As soon as you start defining numbers of hours, it's not a PWD, it's an hourly contract with a limited maximum amount payment and no overtime. If that's what you want then fine, but I'm sticking to PWDs thanks.

And I've done 19 hour days when it's been necessary as well as 5 hour ones when I've finished what needed doing. The trick is to do more of the latter than the former.

I charge 0.5 days occasionally, which seems fair to both parties.

[malvolio]

Wow, I really admire the level you guys are on. I started my career off of Elance, where you have to literally log every 15 minutes with a screenshot-making app to get paid for your work. I used to think this is fair... daily rate contracting with flexible terms was the DREAM!! (dream came true last year)

I would take this contract, no problem in logging 8-9 hours (incl. lunch). But I'm a newb, no family, almost no commitments so I could afford that. Also, in my short career I have noticed a (small) number of contractors who like to cut their hours really short, so I wouldn't be surprised if more of those clauses start appearing here and there...

I get paid quite a lot to deliver stuff, to time and quality requirements (and in my case, it's not code). I don't get paid for being there and I don't get paid for time spent. I usually do deliver stuff on time and to quality and nobody has ever asked me how long it took me to do it. I fill in time sheets for payment in whole days only, and I complete the project time recording in 7.5 hour days but that's it.

A Professional Working Day is defined as "If I do any work for you in a given 24 hours period I will charge you £xxx". As soon as you start defining numbers of hours, it's not a PWD, it's an hourly contract with a limited maximum amount payment and no overtime. If that's what you want then fine, but I'm sticking to PWDs thanks.

And I've done 19 hour days when it's been necessary as well as 5 hour ones when I've finished what needed doing. The trick is to do more of the latter than the former.

[Old Greg]

Wow, I really admire the level you guys are on. I started my career off of Elance, where you have to literally log every 15 minutes with a screenshot-making app to get paid for your work. I used to think this is fair... daily rate contracting with flexible terms was the DREAM!! (dream came true last year)

[Quagmire]

Wow, I really admire the level you guys are on. I started my career off of Elance, where you have to literally log every 15 minutes with a screenshot-making app to get paid for your work. I used to think this is fair... daily rate contracting with flexible terms was the DREAM!! (dream came true last year)

I would take this contract, no problem in logging 8-9 hours (incl. lunch). But I'm a newb, no family, almost no commitments so I could afford that. Also, in my short career I have noticed a (small) number of contractors who like to cut their hours really short, so I wouldn't be surprised if more of those clauses start appearing here and there...

[northernladuk]

The rate is very good because they hardly ever pay it....

But that's for another thread......

[eek]

Not bad for you Pondy. :-)

Now that you're all picking on me again Im off for a little cry....

To be honest, rate is v good so dont really mind. Just a bit unusual.

The rate is very good because they hardly ever pay it....

[psychocandy]

Psycho. Do NOT take this contract. Do not talk to the agent and certainly don't turn up for an interview in case you accidentally accept.

You haven't even been introduced to the client and already you're complaining about the amount of work they expect you to do.

Admin will have to create a new sub-forum for all your "unreasonable client" threads. Seriously, if you take this contract, TPD will have to be deleted to save the server from falling over.

TIA

Your pal pondy.

Not bad for you Pondy. :-)

Now that you're all picking on me again Im off for a little cry....

To be honest, rate is v good so dont really mind. Just a bit unusual.