Reply to: Do you/have you actually worked inside of IR35?

[prozak]

In 1 month of job applications I didn't get a single interview, so hopefully in January I will have more success and having my old company on my CV as having hired me back will make it look a little more attractive.

I would read your CV and think no one else hired him because he was too set in his ways and had to go back to his old company.

just my 2p worth.

Cut the cord.

Its hard but you need to do it if you have any hope of being successful.

At the end of your 3 months your contract will end and they will offer you a permie job again.

Get 1 weeks notice in your contract. Then LEAVE ASAP.

[northernladuk]

Fair enough, I think we're in violent agreement (except I would always fight the IR35 position, just out of principle.

And I'm blunt on purpose, mainly because if you're the kind that gets all shouty or upset at being told the truth in a direct way, you're probably not made for being a freelance. At least you passed that test.

Got my vote as well!

[cojak]

Fair enough, I think we're in violent agreement (except I would always fight the IR35 position, just out of principle.

And I'm blunt on purpose, mainly because if you're the kind that gets all shouty or upset at being told the truth in a direct way, you're probably not made for being a freelance. At least you passed that test.

Quite. WMS.

[malvolio]

Fair enough, I think we're in violent agreement (except I would always fight the IR35 position, just out of principle.

And I'm blunt on purpose, mainly because if you're the kind that gets all shouty or upset at being told the truth in a direct way, you're probably not made for being a freelance. At least you passed that test.

[Rabotnik]

You just answered your own question.

We're independent workers who as far as possible define our own working arrangements. We don't suggest contracts, we offer our own if there isn't one on the table (and use the new AWR-proofed and pre-reviewed PCG ones while you're at it) and make sure our working arrangements align to those contracts. We don't accept unnecessary limits on working hours. We understand IR35 in depth and the rst of the panolpy of things we have to keep our heads around. We don't need or want comfort factors, we're there to deliver a set objective and get the hell out of the way.

We don't go back to ex-employers as contractors. that's suicidal in so many ways beyond IR35, not least of which you thinking you're now a freelance. You want to be one, read the first timer guide over there --->, download and study PCG's Guide to Freelancing then go and be one.

Understand?

Thanks, I've read many of your posts and northernladUK's, and although you can be blunt, I have learned a lot from them. My posts might make me sound like a complete muppet, but I have done loads of research (but perhaps still not enough...) and have been planning this move for about 7 months (was just waiting for company share options to become available so I could cash out). I haven't seen a lot good examples of contractors to follow in my time. I know 3 who work for a company as full time employees for the past 7 years but get paid as contractors and 2 of them spend most of their time in the pub doing as little work as possible. We've hired 3 Microsoft MVPs, 2 of which were OK, but the other charged £1000 a day and in 9 days we got nothing useful out of him and he was utterly lazy. We hired a contract tester, but he got sacked after a few months since he didn't get on with people, and the same thing happened to the contractor I mentioned earlier who I am replacing.

Also, doing a 3 month stint here might sound lame to a seasoned veteran, but if it's a guaranteed rate of £400pd versus an unknown period of time on the bench on £0pd waiting for an agent to give a 1st timer a chance, I went for the money (even if it did result in me having to make newbie posts here on the dreaded IR35 ).

[Rabotnik]

Sounds to me like just accepting it's IR35-caught and getting on with it is the best path. Things to consider:

1. Try getting the extra money on the basis you have to pay more tax... that's permie thinking but if you're in IR35 then who cares...
2. Take the work but only until something better comes up and make it clear that is what you are doing, and why.
3. Presumably you are going direct, with no agent taking a cut? In which case what you are paying for IR35 and what you might be paying the agent are maybe comparable... as long as you get market rate then fine

I will probably end up just accepting the IR35 status since I will still get a decent wage out of it and I wouldn't want to burn any bridges at this stage by turning down the contract since I am hoping for more work from them in future (and it's only 3 months). In 1 month of job applications I didn't get a single interview, so hopefully in January I will have more success and having my old company on my CV as having hired me back will make it look a little more attractive. The other thing to consider is I was going to drop my rate to get a job, and after doing the maths, I would have gotten the same income from being outside IR35 that I will get now if I am in it (since I am getting market rate at this role).

[malvolio]

Those changes are just so that I and everyone else there is constantly reminded I'm not in the same role anymore, nothing to do with anything legal. What do you mean act like a contractor? What do you think is the biggest difference between permies and contractors?

You just answered your own question.

We're independent workers who as far as possible define our own working arrangements. We don't suggest contracts, we offer our own if there isn't one on the table (and use the new AWR-proofed and pre-reviewed PCG ones while you're at it) and make sure our working arrangements align to those contracts. We don't accept unnecessary limits on working hours. We understand IR35 in depth and the rst of the panolpy of things we have to keep our heads around. We don't need or want comfort factors, we're there to deliver a set objective and get the hell out of the way.

We don't go back to ex-employers as contractors. that's suicidal in so many ways beyond IR35, not least of which you thinking you're now a freelance. You want to be one, read the first timer guide over there --->, download and study PCG's Guide to Freelancing then go and be one.

Understand?

[d000hg]

Sounds to me like just accepting it's IR35-caught and getting on with it is the best path. Things to consider:

1. Try getting the extra money on the basis you have to pay more tax... that's permie thinking but if you're in IR35 then who cares...
2. Take the work but only until something better comes up and make it clear that is what you are doing, and why.
3. Presumably you are going direct, with no agent taking a cut? In which case what you are paying for IR35 and what you might be paying the agent are maybe comparable... as long as you get market rate then fine

[Rabotnik]

This is what I mean about not understand how to act as a contractor. What desk you sit at and using the companys exchange server are not problems. It is your mind set. It is acceptable, and in fact, mandatory in most cases to use the clients systems and be given laptops etc. You have to know why it is acceptable and when you are pushing boundries.

Nothing you have mentioned above matters.

At the end of the day can't turn down work though.

Those changes are just so that I and everyone else there is constantly reminded I'm not in the same role anymore, nothing to do with anything legal. What do you mean act like a contractor? What do you think is the biggest difference between permies and contractors?

[northernladuk]

I am even getting all email there sent only to my business email address so I don't use the company's exchange server, and my old exchange account has been deleted so people can't email me about work I used to do there. And I changed desks just so I don't sit in my old place. I will also dress like a boss from now on, since before I stuck to the company code of casual wear every day.

This is what I mean about not understand how to act as a contractor. What desk you sit at and using the companys exchange server are not problems. It is your mind set. It is acceptable, and in fact, mandatory in most cases to use the clients systems and be given laptops etc. You have to know why it is acceptable and when you are pushing boundries.

Nothing you have mentioned above matters.

At the end of the day can't turn down work though.

[Rabotnik]

Going back to your previous place of work is an IR35 nightmare. Remember it is not just about contracts, it is about working practices. The guy is no longer your boss, he is your client. The processes you used before are not for you now and so on and so forth. It is highly unlikely that you can understand the subtle differences that apply to you as a contractor if you have been there before as a permie and will slide in to old ways too quickly making yourself a hidden permie.
Not only that but they will treat you like a employee a well so two way problem.

If you are going to contract fly the roost and do it properly rather than pretending and going back to your old place of work.

I know what you mean, I was fully prepared to go out into the big bad world of contracting, and even arranged to speak to a friend of a friend about getting some work at his company (apart from carpet bombing job sites with my CV). My boss just brought this up on Tuesday and didn't even give me time to think about it or confirm the rate. He just started arranging things with HR in a rush and I didn't even know the rate I would get til yesterday. And he sacked the contractor on Wednesday, so I was somewhat pushed into just taking the role (and the rate is good, so I didn't have a reason to say no).

I have emailed him suggesting we include some amendments from the QDOS example contract, since it looks solid and covers a lot of points. I actually told him we should just use it in the first place since HR were taking so long getting their contract ready.

I think I am mentally prepared to stay out of my old ways there. I am even getting all email there sent only to my business email address so I don't use the company's exchange server, and my old exchange account has been deleted so people can't email me about work I used to do there. And I changed desks just so I don't sit in my old place. I will also dress like a boss from now on, since before I stuck to the company code of casual wear every day.

[northernladuk]

Going back to your previous place of work is an IR35 nightmare. Remember it is not just about contracts, it is about working practices. The guy is no longer your boss, he is your client. The processes you used before are not for you now and so on and so forth. It is highly unlikely that you can understand the subtle differences that apply to you as a contractor if you have been there before as a permie and will slide in to old ways too quickly making yourself a hidden permie.
Not only that but they will treat you like a employee a well so two way problem.

If you are going to contract fly the roost and do it properly rather than pretending and going back to your old place of work.

[Rabotnik]

It's possible that there may be further issues with regards the IR35 status unless the contract was advertised and open for others to apply for....personal service springs to mind

Ah I see, I wasn't aware that was relevant. It was advertised when we originally hired the contractor, but he was just awful to work with, and they could have started hiring again when they sacked him, but this project is supposed to finish phase 1 by Q1 next year, so it made more sense to just hire me.

[SallyPlanIT]

It's possible that there may be further issues with regards the IR35 status unless the contract was advertised and open for others to apply for....personal service springs to mind

[bobspud]

Thanks mate, that's exactly what I thought. He was telling everyone before I left that when I came back they would have to see me as an external service provider and no longer as one of them, but then he pulls this "9-6 every day 5 days a week" bollocks. I even told him that would not be appropriate and he emailed HR anyway and told them to add that. I think he still wants to act as my boss even though I don't work for him any more.

Your boss is just pissed that he's got to pay for what he had for free. Ask HR what there standard contract is for externals and ask them why they are letting him place constraints in the contract that still imply an employee relationship...