Reply to: Holding crypto in Ltd Company?

[willendure]

Pssssst!
wanna buy some magic beans??

Sure. How many have you got?

[sadkingbilly]

Pssssst!
wanna buy some magic beans??

[willendure]

Sorry I meant price in the trading sense, as in what it's doing. Going up, going down. Bull market, bear market.

Anyway FWIW, arguably silver isn't high. It achieved the same price back in 2011 and all the way back in 1980. Adjusted for inflation, it hasn't even matched those bull market highs (2nd chart).

https://www.macrotrends.net/1470/his...100-year-chart

I agree. Tends to lag gold too, I think it still has plenty to run.

Been in VZLA silver miner too, and that has been going gang busters.

[woody1]

Price? By itself it does not matter. For example, gold and silver are both at their highest prices ever. Price alone says you should sell, since its buy low, sell high, right? The real question is, does the price keep moving up and why and how confident are you that it will?

Sorry I meant price in the trading sense, as in what it's doing. Going up, going down. Bull market, bear market.

Anyway FWIW, arguably silver isn't high. It achieved the same price back in 2011 and all the way back in 1980. Adjusted for inflation, it hasn't even matched those bull market highs (2nd chart).

https://www.macrotrends.net/1470/his...100-year-chart

[willendure]

Some of these, and other gold bugs, have been talking up gold for well over a decade; every year predicting that a bull market is just around the corner. Until a couple of years ago, this was a terrible losing trade compared to the US stock bull market.

I stopped listening to anyone a long time ago. The only thing that matters is price; what the markets are actually doing, what's printed on the chart.

Yes, the gold bugs certainly have, but most of those names are not gold bugs, only really Rick Rule and Brien Lunden out of that list. I find both have interesting things to say. I certainly did not blindly invest based on a few comments by a gold bug or two.

In my case I wanted to invest some savings, but I don't have enough money to justify paying for high quality independant financial advice, and I know the free financial advice you get from your bank or whoever is really about them selling you their products, and also I like to understand things anway. So I spent a lot of time watching the better quality content on youtube as well as reading plenty of books. I do think it is worth listening to other people, but you need to listen to a lot of other people to develop a well rounded view of things and get closer to the truth.

Learning by your own actions is essential too. But at the same time you can burn a lot of money making mistakes and only performing incomplete and non-repeatable experiments from which the learning is either limited or painful. So I like to listen to what a lot of succesful investors have to say and hope to pick some of it up myself that way too.

Price? By itself it does not matter. For example, gold and silver are both at their highest prices ever. Price alone says you should sell, since its buy low, sell high, right? The real question is, does the price keep moving up and why and how confident are you that it will?

Also what is the implication of that price? Just buy gold and be done with it? But if a junior miner has an AISC of $1.8K and gold is $2K, thats $200/ounce profit. As price moves up the profit explodes. It also capitalizes the miner and enables them to secure funding to develop their mines much more easily, so as price increases risk decreases to a certain extent.

All stories of course, and there is a danger in placing too much faith in stories that cannot be completely verified. But I do find that understanding things more deeply is what is working for me, and enabled me to get in when others were not seeing it yet.

[woody1]

I am not talking about teenage youtubers, but serious people that have been around for a while, Rick Rule, Adam Tagart, Luke Gromen, Lyn Alden, Thomas Atkinson, Brien Lundin and plenty more people that have been interviewed by these people.

Some of these, and other gold bugs, have been talking up gold for well over a decade; every year predicting that a bull market is just around the corner. Until a couple of years ago, this was a terrible losing trade compared to the US stock bull market.

I stopped listening to anyone a long time ago. The only thing that matters is price; what the markets are actually doing, what's printed on the chart.

[willendure]

Not within a ltd co but I recently took profit in btc and moved the proceeds into a silver etf.

Gold is the driving force but silver tends to outperform in the later stages of a precious metals bull market. No idea how long this bull market will last, or how high it will ultimately go, but can see the gsr dropping well below 50 before it comes to an end. May even be like the late 1970s.

https://www.macrotrends.net/1441/gold-to-silver-ratio

Been quite heavily into gold and silver and miners for a while myself. My friends think I am smart because I saw it coming, and I certainly feel smart. But really I am just pleased that I actually went beyond just thinking about investing and actually set up ISA and SIPP accounts and made the trades.

Was I actually smart? Not as smart as the people that really saw it coming and put that out on Youtube. I am not talking about teenage youtubers, but serious people that have been around for a while, Rick Rule, Adam Tagart, Luke Gromen, Lyn Alden, Thomas Atkinson, Brien Lundin and plenty more people that have been interviewed by these people. There is obviously a lot of BS on youtube, but a lot of quality stuff too, and you can find it if you search around these names.

Best trade so far has been Heliostar Metals and I got in at CAD $0.30 and its just gone over CAD $2 in about 18 months!! Still plenty upside to come on that one I think.

Still got the BTC. Been getting more nervous on it lately, as timewise the cycle is later than normal. But I think its still due a parabolic phase before any massive correction, so I will continue to hang on.

Sold my remaining AI stock recently. It did a 3x in about the last 2 years, but I had losers too - I was in Graphcore and that went to zero!! Overall I am ahead but not hugely. Its a bubble, and I think there are better opportunities currently, so at least I made it out with more than I put in and can re-invest elsewhere.

My advice on precious metals is to look at Gold priced in Yuan - because the Chinese are setting the price in Shanghai, despite what western investors might like to think. You can see it leveled out at 24K Yuan for a good while this year, but recently broke to the upside. The USA has a *lot* of debt relative to GDP. The Chinese have a *staggering* amount of debt relative to GDP and the Yuan is a political good, not an economic good. In other words the CCP needs to deeply revalue Yuan in gold terms, and can be quite unrestricted in their approach to doing just that. So if you see it break out of a horizontal phase, it is a very positive move.

[woody1]

Starting to wish I had set up an account that would let the company hold physical gold and silver now. Feels like BTC momentum is slipping and a take profit might be a smart move.

Not within a ltd co but I recently took profit in btc and moved the proceeds into a silver etf.

Gold is the driving force but silver tends to outperform in the later stages of a precious metals bull market. No idea how long this bull market will last, or how high it will ultimately go, but can see the gsr dropping well below 50 before it comes to an end. May even be like the late 1970s.

https://www.macrotrends.net/1441/gold-to-silver-ratio

[willendure]

I hold a small BTC/ETH allocation in my UK Ltd. Our accountant treated it as an intangible under FRS 102 at cost, tested for impairment at year end, no mark to market gains booked. Disposals hit P&L and get corporation tax, not CGT. No VAT on buying/selling exchange tokens. Keep records of dates, GBP values and fees. We documented it as treasury and kept it a small % to avoid close investment company issues. Unrelated but useful: I tried an orb once to get an anonymous proof of human for a beta app. Didn’t change tax stuff, but it helped at signup.

Thanks - that is interesting. Intangible would seem to fit the definition well. Same as you, I have a small allocation just in case close investment company is an issue, which I doubt anyway so long as I have a contracting income.

Starting to wish I had set up an account that would let the company hold physical gold and silver now. Feels like BTC momentum is slipping and a take profit might be a smart move.

[Stevep42]

I hold a small BTC/ETH allocation in my UK Ltd. Our accountant treated it as an intangible under FRS 102 at cost, tested for impairment at year end, no mark to market gains booked. Disposals hit P&L and get corporation tax, not CGT. No VAT on buying/selling exchange tokens. Keep records of dates, GBP values and fees. We documented it as treasury and kept it a small % to avoid close investment company issues. Unrelated but useful: I tried an orb once to get an anonymous proof of human for a beta app. Didn’t change tax stuff, but it helped at signup.

[Lance]

Thanks for that FCA link. I looked into it and "specific cryptoasset activities" means either running an exchange, or holding custodial wallets. So an ltd owning some bitcoin as an investment/inflation hedge would not come under that.

So far, I have always taken my crypto off exchange and into my own wallet. By far the scariest thing about crypto is the fear of somehow losing that wallet, or having it hacked.

I am of the opinion that a personal wallet is safer than an Exchange. They do get hacked.
Keep your private key very secure is the trick. You can use a paper wallet, but they are at risk of fire damage.

In the past I have kept the wallet itself backed up to cloud services (OneDrive) protected by MFA. And keep the private key in a different location and encrypt with AES-256. The biggest risk to those is loss of files, hence cloud storage. Backups also are handy.

[willendure]

FCA Registered Cryptoasset firms

If you want to keep your Crypto on the exchange, you should be very sure about that exchange is managed.

Thanks for that FCA link. I looked into it and "specific cryptoasset activities" means either running an exchange, or holding custodial wallets. So an ltd owning some bitcoin as an investment/inflation hedge would not come under that.

So far, I have always taken my crypto off exchange and into my own wallet. By far the scariest thing about crypto is the fear of somehow losing that wallet, or having it hacked.

[CheeseSlice]

FCA Registered Cryptoasset firms

From 10 January 2020, firms carrying out specific cryptoasset activities in the UK will need to comply with the amended Money Laundering, Terrorist Financing and Transfer of Funds (Information on the Payer) Regulations 2017 (MLRs) and register with the FCA. This list below shows the registered cryptoasset firms and their details which the FCA is responsible for registering, supervising and enforcing, for anti-money laundering and counter terrorist financing purposes.

I think the fear of a ponzi scheme is understandable when the FTX/SBF scandal was so recent.
If you want to keep your Crypto on the exchange, you should be very sure about that exchange is managed.
In the USA due to new SEC approvals, you can now hold Bitcoin in a Spot Bitcoin ETF and even hold it a pension. Not availble in the UK yet though as I believe our requriements are more stringent here.
Did you also know that blockchains like for Bitoin are transparent (though anonymous), so you can view and watch transactions in realtime. Law enforcement and even anybody can literally "follow the money" as it moves between wallets.

I don't hold crypto in my business/treasury but I do hold it personally. BTC and ETH to be specific. Its working out quite nicely at the moment.

[Lance]

You can open a business account on Bitstamp. I just did.

They want your tax id now. So all purchases initially tie your on exchange wallet together with your company id. Bitcoin is a public ledger. If the money ends up in my private exchange wallet and then back into £ in my pocket, it will be pretty easy to trace. I guess it can probably be done by washing through some other cryptos, stable coins, etc.

Of course, I have no intention of defrauding HMRC. It will all be above board and remain within ownership of the ltd, and if there is a profit, will be paying corp tax on it.

Terrorists sometimes buy weapons with dollars. Does that mean I should not use the dollar?

good luck with it. I hope it works out.

<Placemarker> BTC price today, on Bitstamp is £55,328

[willendure]

no but OP is asking about holding the money launderers/terrorists/people smugglers/drug dealers/delete as appropriate, currency of choice in his LTD for which he has fiduciary obligations. So it's a terrible idea for multiple reasons.

Another couple of reasons...
How do you prove the loss to HMRC is not just from trousering a few k that has been sent via the blockchain?
Finding a crypto exchange that will deal with a business bank that isn't just another Ponzi scheme.

You can open a business account on Bitstamp. I just did.

They want your tax id now. So all purchases initially tie your on exchange wallet together with your company id. Bitcoin is a public ledger. If the money ends up in my private exchange wallet and then back into £ in my pocket, it will be pretty easy to trace. I guess it can probably be done by washing through some other cryptos, stable coins, etc.

Of course, I have no intention of defrauding HMRC. It will all be above board and remain within ownership of the ltd, and if there is a profit, will be paying corp tax on it.

Terrorists sometimes buy weapons with dollars. Does that mean I should not use the dollar?