Reply to: Another high profile IR35 loss for HMRC

[Lance]

May as well save on the IR35 insurance and instead donate to those few unfortunate souls that get targeted each year, to cover their bill.

What you describe there is insurance. Just a mutual one.

[PerfectStorm]

WTAF! If I'm understanding that right, HMRC have only ever taken a handful of cases to court each year, and lost most of them.

So those of us that in the early days of IR35 thought of it as a voluntary tax, in that the risk of investigation was low, have been proven right.*

May as well save on the IR35 insurance and instead donate to those few unfortunate souls that get targeted each year, to cover their bill.

HMRC are relying on the threat rather than the reality of prosecution to frighten people into paying the IR35 tax. No wonder they don't understand their own legislation, they don't need to.

Since inception how much has HMRC received from IR35 and how much has it cost?

*I suppose there may be a large number of investigations that didn't get to court as the dues were paid.

Is there a bit of confirmation bias going on here?

Those cases that go to court, are the the ones the punter expects to win. Otherwise their IPSE/QDOS/legal advisor/themselves advises them to fold and pay the extra.

So HMRC 'wins' every case of an individual paying back at PAYE rates, no?

[Maslins]

Qdos Group Posts 51% Margin, Plus GBP7.1m Profits for 2017 – Insurance Edge

Wowsers! Does partly make you think "congrats", and partly "lower your prices then"!

[pr1]

True, but may as well cut out the middleman who may be making lots of profit on this.

Qdos Group Posts 51% Margin, Plus GBP7.1m Profits for 2017 – Insurance Edge

[Hobosapien]

That's pretty much exactly what insurance is.

True, but may as well cut out the middleman who may be making lots of profit on this.

[SuperLooper]

May as well save on the IR35 insurance and instead donate to those few unfortunate souls that get targeted each year, to cover their bill.

That's pretty much exactly what insurance is.

[Maslins]

May as well save on the IR35 insurance and instead donate to those few unfortunate souls that get targeted each year, to cover their bill.

Hehe, a nice theory...but if you're the unlucky one who got "caught", can you rely on other contractors to bail you out?!

HMRC are relying on the threat rather than the reality of prosecution to frighten people into paying the IR35 tax. No wonder they don't understand their own legislation, they don't need to.

Since inception how much has HMRC received from IR35 and how much has it cost?

*I suppose there may be a large number of investigations that didn't get to court as the dues were paid.

As well as your * point, I think one key reason IR35 was retained was the extra tax incurred simply by fear of it existing. Ie there was an argument that if they publicly scrapped it, the floodgates would open with a few million more PAYE employees becoming Ltd Co contractors.

I think it's becoming increasingly common that many laws are as good as unenforceable. As long as the majority of people are still scared of them, those laws still serve a useful purpose. It's when the masses realise many laws are unenforceable and no longer fear them that we have anarchy!

[Hobosapien]

WTAF! If I'm understanding that right, HMRC have only ever taken a handful of cases to court each year, and lost most of them.

So those of us that in the early days of IR35 thought of it as a voluntary tax, in that the risk of investigation was low, have been proven right.*

May as well save on the IR35 insurance and instead donate to those few unfortunate souls that get targeted each year, to cover their bill.

HMRC are relying on the threat rather than the reality of prosecution to frighten people into paying the IR35 tax. No wonder they don't understand their own legislation, they don't need to.

Since inception how much has HMRC received from IR35 and how much has it cost?

*I suppose there may be a large number of investigations that didn't get to court as the dues were paid.

[Alchemy Accountancy]

Anyone got the stats on high profile HMRC wins this year? Would be useful for when I talk to my MP about it. By my reckoning they are either 2 wins from 6 cases or 2 from 7 in 2019 but I may have miscounted.

NLUK has already mentioned the site, but there is a good table here:

3 Aug 2001 12 Sep 2001 Battersby v Campbell HMRC
01 Dec 2001 22 Jan 2002 F S Consulting Limited vs McCaul HMRC
01 Oct 2002 01 Oct 2002 Lime IT vs Justin Contractor
27 Feb 2003 28 Mar 2003 Synaptek vs Young HMRC
15 Aug 2003 03 Nov 2003 Tilbury v HMIT Contractor
01 Jan 2004 08 Oct 2004 Usetech vs Young (inc High Court) HMRC
01 Mar 2004 29 Jul 2004 Ansell Computer Services Contractor
23 Mar 2004 22 Oct 2004 Future Online (inc High Court) HMRC
15 Dec 2004 17 Jan 2005 Netherlane Limited HMRC
28 Jun 2007 05 Jul 2007 Island Consultants Ltd V Revenue & Customs HMRC
23 Jul 2007 20 Dec 2007 Datagate Services Ltd Contractor
20 Sep 2007 11 Dec 2007 Dragonfly Consulting Ltd HMRC
26 Sep 2007 11 Dec 2007 MKM Computing Ltd HMRC
01 Nov 2007 11 Dec 2007 First Word Software Ltd Contractor
22 Jan 2008 19 May 2008 Alternative Book Company Ltd HMRC
24 Nov 2008 15 Jan 2009 Larkstar Data HMRC
08 Dec 2009 06 Apr 2010 Novasoft Contractor
15 Nov 2010 05 Jan 2011 MBF Design Services v HMRC Contractor
10 Jan 2011 24 Jun 2011 Marlen Ltd Contractor
17 Feb 2011 11 May 2011 ECR Consulting Contractor
12 Apr 2011 06 Jul 2011 Primary Path Ltd Contractor
24 Oct 2011 28 Nov 2011 JLJ Services v HMRC Split case
15 Nov 2016 27 Jan 2017 Armitage Technical Design Services Limited Contractor
26 Sep 2017 14 Feb 2018 Christa Ackroyd HMRC
04 Oct 2017 16 May 2018 Jensal Software Limited Contractor
08 Nov 2017 19 Mar 2018 MDCM Ltd Contractor
12 Nov 2018 20 Mar 2019 Albatel Limited (Lorraine Kelly) Contractor
11 Mar 2019 16 Apr 2019 Atholl Limited Contractor

[northernladuk]

Many thanks. All cleared.

I see it as a fresh start

[simes]

Mods, not sure what Reputation Comments are, nor how they are used, and nor how they are cleaned up - but if you could be so kind...

Many thanks. All cleared.

[DeludedKitten]

Anyone got the stats on high profile HMRC wins this year? Would be useful for when I talk to my MP about it. By my reckoning they are either 2 wins from 6 cases or 2 from 7 in 2019 but I may have miscounted.

IPSE press release says since the public sector rollout in 2017 HMRC have now lost five out of six cases.

Aren't they only meant to proceed if there is a good chance of winning??

[Hobosapien]

Would those type of stats be obtainable from HMRC via a freedom of information request? If so, anyone already seen the result of such a request?

Publication scheme - HM Revenue & Customs - GOV.UK

[northernladuk]

Anyone got the stats on high profile HMRC wins this year? Would be useful for when I talk to my MP about it. By my reckoning they are either 2 wins from 6 cases or 2 from 7 in 2019 but I may have miscounted.

You could try dropping Dave Chaplin at Contractor Calculator. He's been all over these cases on LinkedIn for a long time now so sure he's got a good idea.

[DeludedKitten]

Anyone got the stats on high profile HMRC wins this year? Would be useful for when I talk to my MP about it. By my reckoning they are either 2 wins from 6 cases or 2 from 7 in 2019 but I may have miscounted.