Public sector contracting

[GB9]

The 'ignore' option would no doubt lead to a public flagellation by Danny Alexander (and contract termination) so I dutifully popped the qdos contract review in the post for their edification.

I (and I'm sure the dwindling number of people following this thread) will await their response with baited breath...

B

Interested to know if the QDOS review is accepted.

[DaveB]

Interested to know if the QDOS review is accepted.

An awful lot of people will be, including most of the guys I work with.

The letters arrived today in the dept. I'm working in. I didn't get one as I never responded to the original request on the grounds that the wording indicated that I did not need to.

If they come and chase I have a contract review on file ready and waiting for them.

[malvolio]

PCG recently held a big seminar at the MoJ for the contractors caught by their version of this "problem". The end result appears to be a mutually acceptable compromise. Perhaps you should get in touch and do the same.

PM me if you want to take this forward.

[bracken]

A positive?

An awful lot of people will be, including most of the guys I work with.

I assume that they all had their contracts reviewed and will be sending them in anyway? I estimate that where I'm working <10% have done anything about it and the letter has come as a huge shock to them. I think there's a lot of contractors out there who don't take their contractual commitments and IR35 very seriously at all.

I didn't get one as I never responded to the original request on the grounds that the wording indicated that I did not need to.

Mmmmm....I tried the 'this doesn't apply to me' argument on the basis that the e-mail said 'operates through a third party agency' and I don't regard my agent as third party. After lots and lots of e-mail and talk of non-compliance with the contractual agreement and probable instant sacking (of me, not the agent), the scope of the exercise was changed to anyone who operates through a limited company and agency - which of course included me but then they would have known that anyway as they're my agent and they only accept Ltds!! At the end of the day, the obligation on my Ltd to provide the underlying contract review information is in the contract that I signed and the request from the agent was merely to allow the end client to contact me direct. On balance, I prefer to tackle this head-on so I allowed direct contact. Great though that you stood your ground - I'd be interested to hear what the agent / client next steps are with you - you are still onsite today arent you?

You never know, this could be a positive - I've asked for confirmation (within 20 working days) that they accept my submission which of course if they do, will make it very difficult for another part of govt (HMRC, who of course were instrumental in putting the taxation of public sector appointees policy together) to turn around and say that there's an IR35 issue with my contract / working practices. Once the contract review is approved, and assuming that the contract doesn't change, it lasts for the whole contract so no problems with a long term stay with the client.

B

[bracken]

PCG Seminar for Cabinet Office contractors...

Those nice people at the PCG are laying on a seminar for Cabinet Office contractors on Wed 7th August at 5.30PM at their offices in Farrar Street London. PCG Members and non-members are welcome. Outline agenda:

- 5.30pm – Reception
- 5.45pm – Andy Chamberlain, Senior Public Affairs Adviser at PCG will explain the
background to the public sector review of ‘off-payroll’ workers. This review by HM
Treasury has led directly to the implementation of different approaches across
Government, including the one currently being rolled out at the Cabinet Office.
- 6.00pm – Paul Mason, Manager Contractor Division at Abbey Tax, will provide an
overview of IR35, the so-called ‘contractors’ legislation’. Paul will explore the options
available to CO contractors.
- 6.45pm – Questions

Great if lots of Cabinet Office contractors attend but if you do intend to, please rsvp to andy.chamberlain@pcg.org.uk so that he gets a good idea of numbers

Cheers and see you there...

B

[malvolio]

Those nice people at the PCG are laying on a seminar for Cabinet Office contractors on Wed 7th August at 5.30PM at their offices in Farrar Street London. PCG Members and non-members are welcome. Outline agenda:

- 5.30pm – Reception
- 5.45pm – Andy Chamberlain, Senior Public Affairs Adviser at PCG will explain the
background to the public sector review of ‘off-payroll’ workers. This review by HM
Treasury has led directly to the implementation of different approaches across
Government, including the one currently being rolled out at the Cabinet Office.
- 6.00pm – Paul Mason, Manager Contractor Division at Abbey Tax, will provide an
overview of IR35, the so-called ‘contractors’ legislation’. Paul will explore the options
available to CO contractors.
- 6.45pm – Questions

Great if lots of Cabinet Office contractors attend but if you do intend to, please rsvp to andy.chamberlain@pcg.org.uk so that he gets a good idea of numbers

Cheers and see you there...

B

Well that's a result...

I echo Bracken's call to arms - the MoJ seminar had a positive result, not only in terms of the local issues but in adding strenth to PCG's opposition to the whole damned silly concept. The more ammunition we have, the better the liklehood of success.

And Paul Mason is always worth listening to...

[v8gaz]

And it's Dean Farrar street, in case you are confused

[DaveB]

Those nice people at the PCG are laying on a seminar for Cabinet Office contractors on Wed 7th August at 5.30PM at their offices in Farrar Street London. PCG Members and non-members are welcome. Outline agenda:

- 5.30pm – Reception
- 5.45pm – Andy Chamberlain, Senior Public Affairs Adviser at PCG will explain the
background to the public sector review of ‘off-payroll’ workers. This review by HM
Treasury has led directly to the implementation of different approaches across
Government, including the one currently being rolled out at the Cabinet Office.
- 6.00pm – Paul Mason, Manager Contractor Division at Abbey Tax, will provide an
overview of IR35, the so-called ‘contractors’ legislation’. Paul will explore the options
available to CO contractors.
- 6.45pm – Questions

Great if lots of Cabinet Office contractors attend but if you do intend to, please rsvp to andy.chamberlain@pcg.org.uk so that he gets a good idea of numbers

Cheers and see you there...

B

Well that's a result...

I echo Bracken's call to arms - the MoJ seminar had a positive result, not only in terms of the local issues but in adding strenth to PCG's opposition to the whole damned silly concept. The more ammunition we have, the better the liklehood of success.

And Paul Mason is always worth listening to...

Arse, I'm due to be travelling that evening but I will pass on the details to my fellow contractors. Count me as there in spirit if not in body.

[DaveB]

I assume that they all had their contracts reviewed and will be sending them in anyway? I estimate that where I'm working <10% have done anything about it and the letter has come as a huge shock to them. I think there's a lot of contractors out there who don't take their contractual commitments and IR35 very seriously at all.



Mmmmm....I tried the 'this doesn't apply to me' argument on the basis that the e-mail said 'operates through a third party agency' and I don't regard my agent as third party. After lots and lots of e-mail and talk of non-compliance with the contractual agreement and probable instant sacking (of me, not the agent), the scope of the exercise was changed to anyone who operates through a limited company and agency - which of course included me but then they would have known that anyway as they're my agent and they only accept Ltds!! At the end of the day, the obligation on my Ltd to provide the underlying contract review information is in the contract that I signed and the request from the agent was merely to allow the end client to contact me direct. On balance, I prefer to tackle this head-on so I allowed direct contact. Great though that you stood your ground - I'd be interested to hear what the agent / client next steps are with you - you are still onsite today arent you?

You never know, this could be a positive - I've asked for confirmation (within 20 working days) that they accept my submission which of course if they do, will make it very difficult for another part of govt (HMRC, who of course were instrumental in putting the taxation of public sector appointees policy together) to turn around and say that there's an IR35 issue with my contract / working practices. Once the contract review is approved, and assuming that the contract doesn't change, it lasts for the whole contract so no problems with a long term stay with the client.

B

Some are, some aren't. I've been making noises about this in the office for a while and a number of people have since come and asked me what to do about it after the letters started arriving. I pointed them towards QDOS/Accountax/B&C etc for contract reviews and told them to get it sorted. Several had no idea what it was about or why it was happening.

Those who didn't respond to the initial letter, either because they were doing an ostrich impression or like me were prepared to argue the point got letters via our client co email addresses last week once they did the legwork to figure out who we were.

What I can see happening next is at the next renewal round we get contracts that stipulate that they are explicitly inside IR35, at which point I want an appropriate rate hike or I'm off.

[DaveB]

A quick update.

The PCG event was good for those who hadnt really read up on IR35 prior to this. If you'd already done your homwework it was less useful but still good to talk to other contractors and PCG reps directly and ask specific questions. Attendance wasn;t huge, but given the short notice this was to be expected.

On more specifc issues. We did learn what had been happening in the Ministry of Justice where contractors had been asked to complete a questionaire and get it counter signed by their Client contact as being a true representation of the facts re. working pratices. These were then submitted by MoJ together with the agency contract for indeendent review. Unsurprisingly the vast majority came back outside IR35, art which poin MoJ seemed flummoxed.


Cabinet Office seem to be taking a different tack. The standard letter and advice was sent out but they seem to be focussing on the BET scores rather than the contract reviews. At least one contractor had their evidence knocked back as it didn't refer to the BET. They did modify their position following further discusions but I'm not aware of the final outcome.

Personally I submitted the QDOS review, which includes a copy of the BET. My score was Low and the evidence appears to have been accepted without further scrutiny, in fact it was turned around in 24 hours whch suggests they ddnt bother looking a the actual contract and working practices review at all. So fart aas I know I'm the only contractor in the team to have had their evidence acceped so far.