Potentially going PAYE (short term) - rate breakdown

[eek]

That's your first mistake. This is not an HR issue at all, it's (supposed to be) about hiring expert resources from a supplier. Because HR have got involved, and because HR only see people as employers or employees, and because HR are obsessed with rights and protections that suppliers simply aren't interested in or have any need for, they are of no use at all in sorting out this mess.

Read DaveB's post that I was replying to where he tries to explain what happens with employees and come back to me when you've grasped the fact I was talking about employer to employee relationships in response to an (inaccurate) statement on how employer to employee relationships work (hint DaveB said you couldn't treat employees the way the OP is being treated - my point is that actually you can if you need to).

Once again you show an inability to read the entire thread before jumping on something where you missed the context.

[malvolio]

Read DaveB's post that I was replying to where he tries to explain what happens with employees and come back to me when you've grasped the fact I was talking about employer to employee relationships in response to an (inaccurate) statement on how employer to employee relationships work (hint DaveB said you couldn't treat employees the way the OP is being treated - my point is that actually you can if you need to).

Once again you show an inability to read the entire thread before jumping on something where you missed the context.

As have you. I'm making the wider, and admittedly more historical point that this has come about because 90% of us are taken on through HR and so are seen as an employee - temporary, agency or whatever - and not as an independent supplier. This whole discussion is going nowhere until clients wake up to that fact. Which will never happen until we ourselves take that on board.

Which is why moaning about additional tax burdens and reduced rates is a waste of time. We should be focussing on the bad impact to the client, not us.

[PCTNN]

I don't understand what people say is illegal.

Client terminates your original contract and offers you another contract with lower rate. Same effect of when clients cut rate of x% and say take it or leave it.

Is it fair? Probably not
Is it illegal? Definitely not

[hungrybear]

I'm making the wider, and admittedly more historical point that this has come about because 90% of us are taken on through HR and so are seen as an employee - temporary, agency or whatever - and not as an independent supplier. This whole discussion is going nowhere until clients wake up to that fact. Which will never happen until we ourselves take that on board.

Specially in banks, this is exactly the case.

There isn't much independent supplier or independent business mindset among many "contractors". You can also see this from the multiple similar posts on this forum. Asking HR to help etc.

Being business and self employed means you are exposed to the services market, it's state and risks.
Unfortunately, currently the market is in mess (and will most likely stay like this for several months).

Different players are trying to benefit from this mess, including agencies like Reed and even clients themselves.
They are just doing business.

You can negotiate and stop providing services to the agency / client if you feel you are not getting the market rates for your services.

[FIERCE TANK BATTLE]

Gonna be a laugh when work ethic goes down the toilet, along with maxing out sick days, inconvenient holidays, demanding training and goal based performance reviews (tied to training and certification) etc.

I feel I can't offer my peak architectural design skills at the salary being offered, so I'll just become a bod

[BlueSharp]

I suspect it's £500
Less 13.8% Employers NI
less 0.5% Apprentice payments (unavoidable if payroll is bigger than £1.5m from memory)
less 12% holiday pay (retained and paid to your as you take you 20 days of holiday and 8 days of bank holidays)

which comes to about £120 and takes you to £380

As for whether you should be paying the Employers NI - the law says you shouldn't be paying it and it seems that you aren't - as the newly offered rate is lower to reflect the fact the company is paying it.

That's what I would expect as well. Except the OP is not telling us if they get day rate while on holiday or auto enrolment pension contributions as well.

£500 * 220 days = £110,000
£380 * (52 * 5) days = £98,800

[eek]

That's what I would expect as well. Except the OP is not telling us if they get day rate while on holiday or auto enrolment pension contributions as well.

£500 * 220 days = £110,000
£380 * (52 * 5) days = £98,800

They will get that day rate while on holiday as the rules have changed and the old means of paying everything out immediately has gone.

If as my calculations seem to show the holiday money is coming out of the £120 that is no longer going to the OP then he will be receiving something close to your £98,800 a year provided they take 28 days holiday.

[Paralytic]

They will get that day rate while on holiday as the rules have changed and the old means of paying everything out immediately has gone.

If as my calculations seem to show the holiday money is coming out of the £120 that is no longer going to the OP then he will be receiving something close to your £98,800 a year provided they take 28 days holiday.

Umbrellas do provide the option of both getting the holiday pay each month, or to have it accrued and paid out when time off is taken. The default illustration seem to be that holidays are accrued though, so if the OP has not asked specifically for it to be paid monthly, its likely it is being accrued in that illustration.

[eek]

Umbrellas do provide the option of both getting the holiday pay each month, or to have it accrued and paid out when time off is taken. The default illustration seem to be that holidays are accrued though, so if the OP has not asked specifically for it to be paid monthly, its likely it is being accrued in that illustration.

Only until April - as I said the rules have changed and Swedish Derogation is no longer allowed .

[Paralytic]

Only until April - as I said the rules have changed and Swedish Derogation is no longer allowed .

As far as I aware, the closure of the Swedish Derogation "loophole" is to protect workers, not to stop the flexibility that umbrellas provide in allowing employees to take their holiday pay as it is accrued.

Not that it matters much - its accrued anyway, but it'd annoy me if Umbrella's are giving illustrations that are not valid beyond April.

Can any of our regular umbrella representatives that post here comment on this?