"20% of UK businesses would rather axe their contractors than deal with IR35"

[Amanensia]

Genuine question. If we're engaged on a SoW basis rather than T+M, and the end client buggers around so the job takes a lot longer than projected, what happens? Let's say I an contracted to spin up a few environments in the cloud using Terraform and ansible. I'm all ready to go, but the client wants to connect via their private corporate connection rather than the Internet, and their internal networks team hold it up for 2-4 weeks.

Presumably I don't get extra, even if the cause of the delay is with the client?

That's the million dollar question. Equally how do you deal with scope creep, requirements clarification etc. Ideally the contract will include procedures for renegotiation in the event that the amount of work is more (or less) than expected up front, but timing issues ... I dunno. In the example you give you're still doing the same amount of work, you're just left sitting on your hands for a while waiting for the client.

One way of looking at that might be to accept that the potential for wasted time is one of the reasons why SoW is so much more clearly "in business on your own account." A client that regularly buggers you around like that might be able to make amends by offering some other fixed items of work under a separate SoW while you're waiting.

[Paralytic]

Genuine question. If we're engaged on a SoW basis rather than T+M, and the end client buggers around so the job takes a lot longer than projected, what happens? Let's say I an contracted to spin up a few environments in the cloud using Terraform and ansible. I'm all ready to go, but the client wants to connect via their private corporate connection rather than the Internet, and their internal networks team hold it up for 2-4 weeks.

Presumably I don't get extra, even if the cause of the delay is with the client?

If you want to protect yourself, this is the kind of scenarios you'd need to make sure your contract covered. This is very difficult to do thoroughly.

And even if the contract covers it (eg, you write in a clause that states that delays due to the client cause a penalty clause equal to the time-cost of the delay), invoking that clause (and proving it) can be very difficult and can cause strain in the client relationship. That's if you can get a client to sign up to it in the first place, as the people you're contracting with will often, themselves, be dependent on others parts of the same organisation.

Which is why people like T&C contracts.

[simes]

Genuine question. If we're engaged on a SoW basis rather than T+M, and the end client buggers around so the job takes a lot longer than projected, what happens? Let's say I an contracted to spin up a few environments in the cloud using Terraform and ansible. I'm all ready to go, but the client wants to connect via their private corporate connection rather than the Internet, and their internal networks team hold it up for 2-4 weeks.

Presumably I don't get extra, even if the cause of the delay is with the client?

I have actually asked the self same question, and in the process got myself called a 'non-proper contractor' or some such.

https://www.contractoruk.com/forums/...hmrc-ir35.html

I think then you will have to have clauses in the SoW that clearly delineate whose fault is the cause of the delay, and if accepted by the client, one can move on.

Suppliers and Clients have the same things in place when it comes to stage payments. Supplier has done their bit, the solution is not delivered due to Client, Supplier still gets paid.

But, it won't be the contractor stipulating even the use of one, much less the content of one...

[Lance]

I have actually asked the self same question, and in the process got myself called a 'non-proper contractor' or some such.

https://www.contractoruk.com/forums/...hmrc-ir35.html

[B]I think [\B]then you will have to have clauses in the SoW that clearly delineate whose fault is the cause of the delay, and if accepted by the client, one can move on.

Suppliers and Clients have the same things in place when it comes to stage payments. Supplier has done their bit, the solution is not delivered due to Client, Supplier still gets paid.

But, it won't be the contractor stipulating even the use of one, much less the content of one...

More guesswork then?????

You need payment milestones linked to work packages. You need a contract change procedure and a formal way of issuing delay notices.
You’ll also need to be direct as an agency isn’t going to touch it with a barge pole.

It’s interesting that you say ‘suppliers and clients have the same’. The implication there is that you know you’re not a supplier just another bum on a seat.

[b0redom]

The problem is that the 'suppliers' you're talking about tend to be, Oracle, IBM, CGI etc who have armies of legal, BA, accountants who can apply pressure, contractual terms. It's much harder for a one man band.

[Lance]

The problem is that the 'suppliers' you're talking about tend to be, Oracle, IBM, CGI etc who have armies of legal, BA, accountants who can apply pressure, contractual terms. It's almost impossible for a one man band.

FTFY

It can be done, but in general the people who can do the actual work are as commercially savvy as a 15-year old Corbynista.
3/4 people is the minimum really to get a spread of skills so the client can be managed effectively.

[TwoWolves]

Our rates would have to lift x3 to fit all that nonsense.

That's why systems houses charge out gradies at £800 /day, which is why comps preferred contractors. Now it's back to the bad old days. Reload those '80s.

[SussexSeagull]

Not sure this is anything new as a lot of companies don't like taking on contractors. Then they go and do it anyway.

[simes]

More guesswork then?????

You need payment milestones linked to work packages. You need a contract change procedure and a formal way of issuing delay notices.
You’ll also need to be direct as an agency isn’t going to touch it with a barge pole.

It’s interesting that you say ‘suppliers and clients have the same’. The implication there is that you know you’re not a supplier just another bum on a seat.

Deary me, you really are all over me right now aren't you. Havin' fun?

I think it is fair to say that until clients are newly educated in manners that are Not just reliant on the HMRC 'flood' of information, much less their track record of court case wins (sarcasm/joke), much of what happens from 2020, and the discussing of such in late 2019, will be guesswork. I am just positing, not foreseeing.

I know what one needs in such a SoW contract. But the use of such a contract is dependent on clients even allowing there to Be such a thing. And with waves of clients saying they will cease using contractors, discussing the merits of a SoW contract right now seems a bit redundant. But, please continue, if only to continue FTFEveryone.

As to the last sentence, I was not referring to me. I was actually referring to sitting in on meetings between Nortel and C&W back in early 2001 and listening to how Nortel convinced C&W of their right to payment even though SDH rings had not yet been fully delivered.

Anyway, keep popping up for more. Am happy to dance.

[Unix]

If I ran a large private sector company I would see this as great news, if all my competitors are unable or unwilling to make use of a contractors I would make sure I had the contracts and conditions setup so I could use them outside IR35. Contractors tend to be an order of magnitude more productive than permies for just a slightly higher short term cost.