Blanket decisions of inside IR35

[notahappybunny]

NHS blanket outside..........never used the tool but consulted a "specialist advisor" apparently.

[chopper]

Surely the 'reasonable care' clause applies to them declaring you inside if you are inside, rather than declaring you outside if you are outside?

If they declare you in outside instead of inside and didn't take reasonable care in coming to that conclusion, then the client would be liable for the tax.

If they declare you inside instead of outside, then the exchequer hasn't lost out and so there is nothing for the client to be liable for.

[jamesbrown]

Surely the 'reasonable care' clause applies to them declaring you inside if you are inside, rather than declaring you outside if you are outside?

If they declare you in outside instead of inside and didn't take reasonable care in coming to that conclusion, then the client would be liable for the tax.

If they declare you inside instead of outside, then the exchequer hasn't lost out and so there is nothing for the client to be liable for.

It's a circle jerk in the latter scenario, I agree, but the PSB and HMRC/HMG are not the same things, and the PSB can still have a liability to central gov't. The clause on reasonable care is intended to ensure that the PSB makes a realistic assessment, either way. If they don't, the liability falls on the PSB, whether that liability is to HMRC/HMG (wrongly declared outside) or to the contractor (wrongly declared inside). In your scenario (wrongly declared inside), it would be justiciable, were the contractor to pursue it. The courts would need to decide on the precise meaning and consequences, but it's clear that the PSB would pay (not central gov't). Also note that reasonable care does not mean getting it right every time.

[DKB]

Surely the 'reasonable care' clause applies to them declaring you inside if you are inside, rather than declaring you outside if you are outside?

If they declare you in outside instead of inside and didn't take reasonable care in coming to that conclusion, then the client would be liable for the tax.

If they declare you inside instead of outside, then the exchequer hasn't lost out and so there is nothing for the client to be liable for.

Public bodies forced to take 'reasonable care' over contractors' IR35 status :: Contractor UK

[Bluenose]

“Put simply, this [new reasonable care clause at 61T6c)] means that public sector clients must not make general, blanket determinations” of contractors’ IR35 status, says Qdos Contractor.

harumph !

[teapot418]

“Put simply, this [new reasonable care clause at 61T6c)] means that public sector clients must not make general, blanket determinations” of contractors’ IR35 status, says Qdos Contractor.

harumph !

No real clarity about what the individual can do if the client has made a blanket (inside) determination though.

[hollyblue]

Client cannot be swayed and have determined me inside, even though my T&C are completely different to the other 'contractors' in the team and they have stated that they are treating us all the same. They are clearly concerned that if the others find out they'll all want to re-negotiate same as me.

I'm resigned that to remain in this contact I'm going to have to be inside. It's a very local role to home and the T&C I've agreed with them are quite favourable. Putting that aside, given that this is only my 2nd week in this role and I have changed PSB and Agency are my chances of retrograb reduced do we think?

[WordIsBond]

Putting that aside, given that this is only my 2nd week in this role and I have changed PSB and Agency are my chances of retrograb reduced do we think?

Nobody knows, of course, but I'd guess so.

But I would definitely declare the first few weeks of this contract as inside, if you stay. That way, if ever investigated, you can claim to be responsible about IR35, otherwise you look like a tax dodger for a few weeks worth of tax savings. Don't do that.

I'd also be telling them if they are going to put their hands in your pocket and rip you off just so they can avoid conflict among other contractors that they should at least uplift your rate by 15% to cover the employers NI.

[eek]

No real clarity about what the individual can do if the client has made a blanket (inside) determination though.

I half suspect it's intentional. I remember when we first looked at things this time last year we couldn't work out how you could appeal an inside decision (who you appeal to, how you could remain in contract while the appeal was heard, how and who repairs National Insurance payments which are per week / month so not reclaimable in the way income tax could possibly be)... and as you say we still don't know how and when you could do so...

And that was why come October everyone around here was saying that the only appropriate attack is probably to seek employment rights...

[lucyclarityumbrella]

“Put simply, this [new reasonable care clause at 61T6c)] means that public sector clients must not make general, blanket determinations” of contractors’ IR35 status, says Qdos Contractor.

harumph !

The irony - today I got a call from a contractor within HMRC saying they had made the blanket decision for inside too