Its fine roll it out to the private sector.

[youngguy]

Mebbe aye, mebbe naw.

As much as we can look at the tool and say "if I answer it this way, I'm outside so it's fine", that doesn't mean that (a) a public sector client will bother to use the tool to make a determination for the individual; and (b) the client will complete the questions in the same way that the contractor might.

This.

When I completed it the first few times I was easily outside. This was based on my working practices and contract and what I would do (eg say no if asked to move project).

When I put myself in the client's shoes and assumed they answered based on what they would like (ie of course they'd like us next to them 5 days per week at the hours they choose, of course they'd like to move us to other projects should their priorities change) the answer was inside.

I can see a client answering based on their preference.

[northernladuk]

I don’t understand this one at all. In Express & Echo Publications Ltd vs Tanton, the case was ultimately decided on a clause in the agreement which stated a substitute could be provided if they were “unable or unwilling” to provide the services. If you are ill you are both unable and unwilling and I can’t see how that can determine whether a right of substitution is genuine.

Interesting one this. I do believe most contractors don't understand what is involved in a proper substitution. Many are thinking of a replacement. They don't appreciate they should be getting the new guy up to speed in their own time and also not understand they can't put a proper sub in if they are ill?

I'd be interested how much of a disconnect there will be between what a client expects from a substitution and what a tick box permatractor thinks sitting playing with the tool.

I wonder how many will be surprised if a client says no.

[teapot418]

This.

When I completed it the first few times I was easily outside. This was based on my working practices and contract and what I would do (eg say no if asked to move project).

When I put myself in the client's shoes and assumed they answered based on what they would like (ie of course they'd like us next to them 5 days per week at the hours they choose, of course they'd like to move us to other projects should their priorities change) the answer was inside.

I can see a client answering based on their preference.

It is a blunt tool. Some of the nuances can swing it. For example, changing contractor choosing where to work, to 'Partly - some has to be done in agreed location', which could be a few meetings a year on client site or the odd workshop, can be enough to change you from outside to inside.

So it really does depend on the answerer being educated on the different subtleties.

[NotAllThere]

I wonder if a FOI request would release the source code. Or at least the specification or flow-chart of the various outcomes.

[youngguy]

It is a blunt tool. Some of the nuances can swing it. For example, changing contractor choosing where to work, to 'Partly - some has to be done in agreed location', which could be a few meetings a year on client site or the odd workshop, can be enough to change you from outside to inside.

So it really does depend on the answerer being educated on the different subtleties.

Agree that education is the key, as are the nuances. For example I usually suggest to the client that I sit in 'that' corner as it puts me close to the project team. I determine that I will be on their site at certain days for key meetings. I solely make this decision (as I never ask and we don't debate) but it happens to probably be the decision that they would choose if I hadn't taken it upon myself .

If I were still in the PS and wanted to stay, I'd sit with the client and explain if they wanted to keep me then those answers make a difference. You could have a conversation around those points and use them to agree working practices that kept all parties happy .

[b r]

When I put myself in the client's shoes and assumed they answered based on what they would like (ie of course they'd like us next to them 5 days per week at the hours they choose, of course they'd like to move us to other projects should their priorities change) the answer was inside.

I can see a client answering based on their preference.

+1

And I'd EXPECT the client answering based on their preference.

I had a go last night and answered as I'd expect a PS (and tbh any contract) contract to work in reality (as others have said, using their equipment, possibly some WFH, doing the work they gave you etc), inside.

When I've employed contractors in the private sector they've been told what/how to work and what is required for them to deliver using our equipment. Big corporate. I haven't told them how to code, that's what they were employed to do. Also RoS in name only, I'd still interview any replacement.

[teapot418]

I wonder if a FOI request would release the source code. Or at least the specification or flow-chart of the various outcomes.

Don't need a FOI request

https://github.com/hmrc/off-payroll-decision

[seeourbee]

Surprised at all this fine tuning discussion (or perhaps you're just exhausting every permutation?) but I think this guy on LinkedIn summed it up well:



Basically it should be relatively straightforward to be outside (if you are a genuine contractor). Your agent should be having those 'directing' conversations with the end client. If your agent isn't doing that then you've got a terrible contact. You need to surround yourself with talented people, one of the rules of business.

[NotAllThere]

Don't need a FOI request

https://github.com/hmrc/off-payroll-decision

So there's no chance of them sneakily changing the algorithm when it doesn't give them the answer they want.

[seeourbee]

So Cap Gemini were behind this release were they ...?