Results of the public sector consultation is up

[Hotsauce56]

The earlier consultation document made clear that the reach of the new legislation covered contractor working through larger private sector consultancies.

That being said, two factors to consider. Firstly if it's a package of work or direct staff supply, and the second is if all parties in the supply chain are aware of the legislation.

Tbh, if the contract requires a minimum number of hours a weeks, this sounds a lot like SDC to me.

Guys thanks for your replies.

Chatting with the recruiter it seems its a package of work delivered as a consultancy service rather than a staff supply. I'm hesitant.

Given the ignorance on these changes I would be surprised if all parties are aware. Out of the chain of four companies involved in this new gig, I'd say its just myself and the recruiter who are aware at this stage.

I'll await the contract with bated breath. Does anyone know who could conduct a decent contract review at this stage and give me an understanding of where I would stand in April 2017, based on what we know to date?

[northernladuk]

If you give consideration to the employment rights angle, and the recent Uber ruling, a PS body will be running through a check list and answering 'yes' to all the criteria that would make you an employee and eligible for employee benefits.

Except for the fact it's a contract with your limited and not you.

[jonnyboy]

You are way over simplifying it. She is delivering a product. A completed website. She can do in her own time and as fast as she wants to depending on clients need. Very very few contractors offer products like that. We offer professional services so a different model. The public sector is probably the worst lot for bending rules as well. They will follow any process regardless of the fall out and cost in most cases.

The rest of the example makes the situation very clear. You can just select an option thats not covered and then try to pretend it might fit. That's just pointless and get us nowhere.

How so? Jasmine delivers a web site. I deliver a data warehouse, or a lump of software, or an intranet page. Yes, its a radical change... from a contractor role (x days @ £x) to a freelancer role (deliver x for a total cost of £xxxx). Clearly it would be a different way of working - no more turning up and working 9am to 5pm Mon to Fri, but if the client wants something, they pay for it to be created and the end price, and its down to the contractor (now freelancer) to work out how long it will take and do it in the way that they see best, meeting with the client from time to time to check in and show how its progressing. In the mean time, this farce plays out and we can watch the Public Sector burn.

Whats the difference between Jasime and myself?

[malvolio]

How so? Jasmine delivers a web site. I deliver a data warehouse, or a lump of software, or an intranet page. Yes, its a radical change... from a contractor role (x days @ £x) to a freelancer role (deliver x for a total cost of £xxxx).

Whats the difference between Jasime and myself?

She gets paid for delivering a finished product, and doesn't get paid of she doesn't. She also doesn't necessarily get paid until it's delivered

You can run your project for 7 months, get paid weekly and then cock up the implementation so it doesn't work (and I've seen that happen several times). You may get sued for poor workmanship or you may not, but you will still have been paid.

It's called business risk, and in HMG's world view, is the true separator between BoS and Freelance.

[MoroccanMole]

Invoice against delivery milestones.

[jonnyboy]

She gets paid for delivering a finished product, and doesn't get paid of she doesn't. She also doesn't necessarily get paid until it's delivered

You can run your project for 7 months, get paid weekly and then cock up the implementation so it doesn't work (and I've seen that happen several times). You may get sued for poor workmanship or you may not, but you will still have been paid.

It's called business risk, and in HMG's world view, is the true separator between BoS and Freelance.

Maybe I am not explaining myself correctly. As it stands, with these rules and measures in place, until the legal bun fights that will happen are concluded, come April 2017, contracting in the PS is no more. Not unless you want to go slowly bankrupt. Even if there are court cases and test cases, I thing contracting is dead full stop - the government will just update the IR35 rules to side step whatever cases they loose, and then when its nice and solid in the PS, roll it out across the private sector. So bum on seat contracting is dead. Gone. Goodbye. End of story.

I am talking about freelancing - proper freelancing. Here is the quote to build that data warehouse you want (that I would be working as a day contractor for in the past, but you cant have that now). Now I will deliver this in my own time, and will have it finished in 3 months, and it will cost you £45,000. I will need a £10.000 deposit to start the work, and will expect payment of the balance 1 week after I deliver it.

[malvolio]

Invoice against delivery milestones.

Assuming you can break your project down into discrete deliverables (a dubious assumption in many cases) then there is still a risk. For example, miss a milestone - easy given these at PS contracts and PS workers you are dealing with - and you don't get paid. You may even get penalised.

[LondonManc]

Given the Uber ruling, surely it's in public sector interest to not have loads of contractors claiming sick days, holidays, union representation and everything else? On that basis alone, I'd say that the public sector department ultimately using the contractor should be arbitrarily allowed to decide which type of contractor they want - a short term perm or a true freelancer. Hector shouldn't get a say because it's the public sector department that's taking the extra administration on or not.

What that would need, though, is a clear definition of off payroll or not, e.g. sick pay, holiday pay, union representation, forced working hours (9-5 M-F, unless permies can do different), etc. versus less control, no work no pay, etc. If public sector bodies can see the pros and cons of both methods of engagement and they are responsible for reporting which staff are recruited under which approach, then it would make life easier for everyone.

[Cirrus]

Not unless you want to go slowly bankrupt. So bum on seat contracting is dead. Gone. Goodbye. End of story.

My lad works for EY and does work along side contractors (in banks). As we all know, these kind of roles can be filled by permies, contractors or consultancies, on a relatively random basis.

As a consultancy permie he pays a lot of tax.

He is, however, far from going bankrupt.

You are just throwing your toys out the pram. Contracting goes on. One of two things happens: either you have a lower income (and have to live like a permie including building warchests) or you put your rate up and recover lost income out of taxed fees.

It's bad but you have to suck it up and stop whingeing.

[northernladuk]

It's bad but you have to suck it up and stop whingeing.

Totally this.

Mis-representing examples and then throwing the towel in when you still don't fully understanding isn't helping anyone.