Staying in the same public sector contract after April 2017

[jamesbrown]

Shhhhh

I can be an inconsiderate prick sometimes, but I'm not likely to change either...

[teapot418]

I can be an inconsiderate prick sometimes, but I'm not likely to change either...

You're an amateur round these parts!

[Andy Hallett]

I was offered a role today that was "outside IR35". I probed why and was told it was based on the tool.

Meanwhile current client keeps saying they will write in blood that my current outside status is true and will still be the case after March.

I do wonder if it would be better to just go and get an inside-IR35 gig just to sit out all of this retro-hunting. I'm suspicious of the "outside" roles and whether it will make HMRC come and probe rather than being a golden scenario

I genuinely think you should find a country with no extradition treaty with the U.K. and emigrate there. It's probably the safest option.

I might sound a bit glib, but having been on this for the past year, and having personally run through a sample 200 of our contractors today there are a number of reasons you are not the lowest fruit:

a) you've heard about it
b) you understand it
c) you have got your previous engagements checked and insured
d) you will have an outside determination, which will, IMHO, cement C
e) you have no liability for payments after 6th April.

Contrast the above with the folk who have not heard about it, throw a bag of receipts to their accountant, don't even have PI let alone IR35 cover and will no doubt be found to be inside.

[philo]

Current contract the org seems to be getting head round how contracts should work as they should all along and have suggested new contracts for some based around delivering solutions or work packages and getting paid on their completion.

New contracts, new job titles and I suppose different working practices - still got to see contract wording.

I'm working as a BA new role would be PM and invoicing when work is complete - i imagine in monthly to bi monthly stages.

Is this still a bit iffy - going from current contract to a new contract with these in the same PSB? I think its certainly a grey area.

[northernladuk]

Current contract the org seems to be getting head round how contracts should work as they should all along and have suggested new contracts for some based around delivering solutions or work packages and getting paid on their completion.

Hmm, I'm not too sure that's what I would constitute getting their heads around contracts TBH.

New contracts, new job titles and I suppose different working practices - still got to see contract wording.

Sounds very contrived.

I'm working as a BA new role would be PM and invoicing when work is complete - i imagine in monthly to bi monthly stages.

Is this still a bit iffy - going from current contract to a new contract with these in the same PSB? I think its certainly a grey area.

All this opens a whole new can of worms, above and beyond it looks like a very contrived solution and IMO you need to think very carefully. On the face of it paid on completion is just a payment timescale, not a new way of working. Nothing wrong with being paid in tranches as milestones are met. There is then the risk the client and/or agent is holding 10's upon 10's of k of your money. Agency goes belly up and where does that leave you.

The contract will be a complex area as you have to agree what constitutes a delivered product. What is the expected delivery date, what happens if it's late/incomplete. You either deliver to one contract style or the other. Just manufacturing a solution out of the other method looks like a disaster waiting to happen.

It also, based on what I read here, tells me the client has less of a clue of what's going on than you give them credit for.

And this wouldn't remove the thread of restrospective action would it? You are with the same dept through the same agency so reporting would continue?

[RonBW]

Is this still a bit iffy - going from current contract to a new contract with these in the same PSB? I think its certainly a grey area.

If you are outside now and outside afterwards, then I don't think so.

If you are outside now and inside afterwards, then probably - if you are intent on doing this then I would change agency at least so there is a change in what is reported to HMRC.

[northernladuk]

If you are outside now and outside afterwards, then I don't think so.

If you are outside now and inside afterwards, then probably - if you are intent on doing this then I would change agency at least so there is a change in what is reported to HMRC.

Indeed but I'd question why the client is going to these lengths if the above is true. They don't want to supply RoS and want some D&C so try change then engagement method instead?

[philo]

Hmm, I'm not too sure that's what I would constitute getting their heads around contracts TBH.



Sounds very contrived.



All this opens a whole new can of worms, above and beyond it looks like a very contrived solution and IMO you need to think very carefully. On the face of it paid on completion is just a payment timescale, not a new way of working. Nothing wrong with being paid in tranches as milestones are met. There is then the risk the client and/or agent is holding 10's upon 10's of k of your money. Agency goes belly up and where does that leave you.

The contract will be a complex area as you have to agree what constitutes a delivered product. What is the expected delivery date, what happens if it's late/incomplete. You either deliver to one contract style or the other. Just manufacturing a solution out of the other method looks like a disaster waiting to happen.

It also, based on what I read here, tells me the client has less of a clue of what's going on than you give them credit for.

And this wouldn't remove the thread of restrospective action would it? You are with the same dept through the same agency so reporting would continue?

I'm with you on the contrived bit. I've said to keep me informed and I'll look at any new offering. It think it's a little rushed altho might be a way of how they should work in future if they can understand and plan properly. Just a curve ball really and it's not being offered to everyone either just a few contractors

Someone (apologies on phone at moment)mentioned changing agencies but don't think that's an option as I'm tied in with them

In terms of the client - they only seemed to have been giving this any thought since the tool came out last week and seem to be thinking a way forward and is at a very informal discussion at the moment. Its definetley come too late really and think I'll be sticking to the end of this contract in 3 weeks.

[SuperZ]

I'm hearing of people leaving their PS contract and many also staying. Personally if I had any argument over being outside of IR35 I'd ditch the contract ASAP. If the contract no longer suits your business then the contract should be cancelled as it's not a contract your company works under. By accepting it you're basically confirming HMRC are in the right and you're really a permie-cant operating as contractor to rip the tax and NI and not a proper business.

If enough reject these now inside IR35 contacts then maybe something will be done about it as many businesses need us, even if it's just increased rates to help make up for the loss.

Me, if this hits then private sector then I'm likely to be retiring from it unless I can push the rates up - contracting will simply be not worth doing and feel sorry for those who will be commuting round the country, living away from home - many will be better off permie if you can put up with what that brings.

[NHS1979]

So, client ran the tool with HR today. My role came out Outside IR35. But, then HR dept came up with the following: "both Xxx and xxx are via Real Staffing agency therefore they will be inside IR35 as the Agency currently pay them and will not be able to send someone else in to undertake the work." Why bother to do assessments if you think every person via an agency is caught inside?

Client is frantic and seeking another meeting with them - I'm back to my original plan - I.e. If you think it's inside I'm gone! Can't be bothered to tell HR they're wrong - I'm sure the agency will try when I tell them