Staying in the same public sector contract after April 2017

[PStanley70]

Surely it depends on the terms of supply between the consultancy and the client - whether they're providing bodies or services.

[BackupBoy]

But they don't, the intermediary requests and the PSB decides as I understand. It really boils down to what services the consultancy is providing.

Otherwise every agency would just say they are a consultancy and therefore rules don't apply.

PS and yes I have heard of a few agencies saying they are going to do this!

In my instance, the consultancy would ask the MoD?

The MoD would determine whether an entire building full of people, all on 6/12 month contracts engaged to deliver a completed project within a finite time-frame, were inside or not?

I can probably state with reasonable certainty that if they determined we were in, we'd all physically be out very soon afterwards. That would have consequences.

[northernladuk]

In my instance, the consultancy would ask the MoD?

The MoD would determine whether an entire building full of people, all on 6/12 month contracts engaged to deliver a completed project within a finite time-frame, were inside or not?

I can probably state with reasonable certainty that if they determined we were in, we'd all physically be out very soon afterwards. That would have consequences.

Erm..where have you been for the last 6 months? You should be leaving now.

[LondonManc]

In my instance, the consultancy would ask the MoD?

The MoD would determine whether an entire building full of people, all on 6/12 month contracts engaged to deliver a completed project within a finite time-frame, were inside or not?

I can probably state with reasonable certainty that if they determined we were in, we'd all physically be out very soon afterwards. That would have consequences.

Are the MoD aware that if you're all determined as in that you'd walk?

[Andy Hallett]

Surely it depends on the terms of supply between the consultancy and the client - whether they're providing bodies or services.

Exactly.

[nucastle]

Was at an evening sponsored by a recruitment agent last night, to go over IR35 and what it means for the PS. They had speakers from an accounting firm, a payroll comparison website and an insurance broker.

The sentiment was overwhelmingly (and unsurprisingly as the speakers were pitching payroll and accounting solutions) that everyone bar a few exceptions is going to be inside IR35, and that it was time to consider payroll/umbrella options. There were a few cursory examples of the client deeming you 'outside', but that scenario was pitched alongside the insurances/solutions you would need to have in place to mitigate these should an investigation about whether the determination of being outside, using the long awaited tool, was challenged.

Overheard a choice quote outside the event by some people supposedly contracting at HMRC who were joking that they had looked at the determination tool internally and the decision to whether or not you were caught by the new rules was based on whether you worked on site with the client, and little else. Obviously this was something I overheard in passing, so large pinch of salt please.

Lastly had a quick chat with a guy who runs a medium sized digital agency currently providing BOS permies and contractors to some of the large PS organisations up here. He said out of the 20% or so that make up his contractors, he's told them all they are going to be under this come April, so be prepared. Time will of course tell, but it was interesting to note the palpable change in rhetoric compared to other people thinking this isn't going to apply to them for some reason.

[BackupBoy]

Erm..where have you been for the last 6 months? You should be leaving now.

Yes, my putative resignation date is February 7th.

[BackupBoy]

Are the MoD aware that if you're all determined as in that you'd walk?

Very.

[pictavia]

Despite all the empire building that is going on, the case law is still based on this :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ready_...onal_Insurance

and that is where the poor agency gets the rough end of the stick.

I accept there are quite a few contractors who are ignorant of the implication of IR35 but there are a significant number who would rather see a true freelance market without staffing agencies.

If an agency writes and 'employment style' contract and engages a PSC contractor then they are misleading someone and it is always the contractor who will be caught in the crossfire. There is currently zero risk to the agency.

[pscont]

But they don't, the intermediary requests and the PSB decides as I understand. It really boils down to what services the consultancy is providing.

Otherwise every agency would just say they are a consultancy and therefore rules don't apply.

PS and yes I have heard of a few agencies saying they are going to do this!

And you are wrong in this case because:

The NHS Trust, whilst having an interest in the work of Janice is not responsible for paying Janice’s PSC. They will not be responsible for determining whether or not off-payroll rules should be applied.

The legislation is intentionally misleading and confusing and have us running around with assumptions like headless chickens. So this example means exactly what your bold text says.