HMRC enquiries for EBT schemes through SANZAR

[DonkeyRhubarb]

I think we know full well that the consultation report will be quietly released via the back door, and will have taken absolutely zero notice of any institutions recommendations or responses to the draft.

Yep. Like many consultations it was just a tick in the box formality.

[jbryce]

Yep. Like many consultations it was just a tick in the box formality.

Not a great advert for democracy tbh - I've mailed HMRC to ask them where their response is to the consultation process.

Setting aside the morale repugnance of tax avoidance and any morale argument relating to a Governments ability to collect tax in order to govern - there is a wider principle in how we are governed. Parliament needs to consult with experts in relevant fields to ensure that legislation is balanced, otherwise it becomes an ill-considered-knee-jerk-reaction.

I can see freedom of the press going the same way.....

[MrO666]

Not a great advert for democracy tbh - I've mailed HMRC to ask them where their response is to the consultation process.

Setting aside the morale repugnance of tax avoidance and any morale argument relating to a Governments ability to collect tax in order to govern - there is a wider principle in how we are governed. Parliament needs to consult with experts in relevant fields to ensure that legislation is balanced, otherwise it becomes an ill-considered-knee-jerk-reaction.

I can see freedom of the press going the same way.....

It actually becomes a dictatorship.

[flamel]

I'm thinking of a slogan "can't pay won't pay" - sound familiar?

[flamel]

This will be one massive pyrrhic victory for the government - limited cash as few have the ability to pay and cash out for housing benefits, the cost of outsourcing debt collection and the reduction of future tax receipts from us lot. Nice one.

[varunksingh]

Agreed, I believe that the Rangers case has little or no impact on anything else.

Even if HMRC do get the full powers they want, you can always refuse to pay it. As I understand it, if you refused to pay then you would be hit by three successive 5% penalties and continuing interest. Unless I'm mistaken, I've not seen anything anywhere which details what HMRC would propose to do after that. Remember, in order to take you to court or start recovery proceedings, they would need to prove that the money is genuinely owed.......pay upfront assessments in no way do this, and from what I can gather are not intended for that purpose either.

An intriguing point I think.

Keep in mind though, if the debt is ultimately proved, then you will have landed yourself with a 15% penalty to boot.

Ranger case is definitely important. If HMRC cannot prove such a loosely implement EBT illegal what chance would they have proving a properly implemented EBT was illegal. HMRC council is even saying a decision made 10 years ago in Dextra by special inspectors was wrong in law. If so why did HMRC not appealed? I am cautiously optimistic that Rangers will win unless Political powers are trying to put pressure on judiciary. HMRC can do anything - they used powers used against terrorist against a whistle blower which I am sure may would have read in news papers.

[MrO666]

Ranger case is definitely important. If HMRC cannot prove such a loosely implement EBT illegal what chance would they have proving a properly implemented EBT was illegal. HMRC council is even saying a decision made 10 years ago in Dextra by special inspectors was wrong in law. If so why did HMRC not appealed? I am cautiously optimistic that Rangers will win unless Political powers are trying to put pressure on judiciary. HMRC can do anything - they used powers used against terrorist against a whistle blower which I am sure may would have read in news papers.

The key point that you're missing with regards to the Rangers case, is that HMRC are targeting the company, not the players, so it's very different to what HMRC are trying to do here.

If HMRC loose (which is apparently very unlikely), don't think that it'll then be a magic wand and make the EBT issue go away, or make HMRC say fair enough, we'll drop all of those cases. The way that the Rangers EBT was structured was very different to how Sanzar and everyone else structured theirs.

What you need to ask yourself, is if push comes to shove are you going to chip in what will amount to £1000's to get a top tier tax firm to fight HMRC over the validity of the Sanzar scheme ?

In my personal opinion, it's no coincidence that the Sanzar directors are nowhere to be seen anymore, and as you quite correctly mentioned, the whole tax avoidance legality has now descended into 50% law and 50% political pressure.

As a betting man, I'm not sure I would be throwing money at this argument, as regardless how strong the case may be we would already be starting from a disadvantaged position.

[CanPayButWouldRatherNot]

I'm thinking of a slogan "can't pay won't pay" - sound familiar?

I have the old middle class poll tax slogan as my name ...

[flamel]

I have the old middle class poll tax slogan as my name ...

Yes - but most here really can't pay - it's not just an inconvenient few hundred quid!!!
I never remember a "middle class poll tax slogan" either?

[flamel]

In fact if the bill was a few thousand I'd pay tomorrow just to make it go away. As I'll be bankrupt I've got nothing to lose by fighting it - the money either goes into an HMRC black hole or into the lawyer's pockets so may as well give it to someone who's on my side.