Churchill Knight & Boox clients being investigated as Managed Service Companies

[Thehunter157]

Guys, I am a Boox company that's been dragged into this mess, and to be honest I am confused by the whole thing. Could anyone please: I have had my appeal recognised and had the charges 'stood down'. Beyond recognition of the appeal I have had no further contact from HMRC. Am I likely to be racking up interest while this is being resolved? And if so, where would I be able to see what charges I have accrued? Sorry to ask stupid questions, I am hopeless with this stuff, I just go to work and pay my taxes, I didn't realise that wasn't good enough until March!

[Cryton]

Interesting....

There's a slight irony here, certainly from CK's portal/clients and continues to confirm my theory as to why this has happened. Your portal seems way more guilty than CK's!

CK's portal never did any of that, the only way you had of knowing how much available you had was from your own spreadsheets/bank statements, how much you paid your employees was again defined, not by a portal, but your own budget/profits of your company.

CK did VAT returns and end of year returns as an accountant/book-keeper

If your portal helps you out that much don't be surprised when HMRC come calling for that particular accountancy firm.

Are you saying that FreeAgent is a de facto MSCP?

I use FreeAgent with a well known online accountant firm, however I am in the midst of leaving them and moving to a local high street accountant. My plan was to keep using FreeAgent and just pay the new accountant to do my end of year.
However by the sounds of it, it might be best to ditch FreeAgent too to be on the safe side.

[PurelyBlue]

Are you saying that FreeAgent is a de facto MSCP?

I don't think FreeAgent could be an MSCP. An MSCP is defined by the legislation as "a person who carries on a business of promoting or facilitating the use of companies to provide the services of individuals (“an MSC provider”)". FreeAgent is general purpose (same as a high street accountant) in that they serve a variety of different customers so are not specifically in the "business of promoting or facilitating the use of companies to provide the services of individuals".

You can read HMRC's interpretation of MSCP here (which seems to agree with this interpretation): https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-man...manual/esm3515

[GregRickshaw]

Are you saying that FreeAgent is a de facto MSCP?

I use FreeAgent with a well known online accountant firm, however I am in the midst of leaving them and moving to a local high street accountant. My plan was to keep using FreeAgent and just pay the new accountant to do my end of year.
However by the sounds of it, it might be best to ditch FreeAgent too to be on the safe side.

No not at all, software I suspect cannot provide Managed Service Companies. You need the P somewhere.

The thing I was getting at was, there was a lot of rhetoric about the portal in the early days of this, yet CK's portal did none of the things the self-service software seem to do. The direction from the portal (at CK) seemed to be part of the capture.

I think you are fine with Free Agent and the like as you are taking control of your own company not having someone direct you.

Yet most of us thought we were fine using an accountant

[GregRickshaw]

Guys, I am a Boox company that's been dragged into this mess, and to be honest I am confused by the whole thing. Could anyone please: I have had my appeal recognised and had the charges 'stood down'. Beyond recognition of the appeal I have had no further contact from HMRC. Am I likely to be racking up interest while this is being resolved? And if so, where would I be able to see what charges I have accrued? Sorry to ask stupid questions, I am hopeless with this stuff, I just go to work and pay my taxes, I didn't realise that wasn't good enough until March!

Your pain is felt here and going through an accountant and not some dodgy loan/umbrella etc., one would think what could go wrong eh?

The most annoying thing for me is CK knew about this investigation back in 2015, had they told us then it would probably have ruined their business so they chose to save themselves or think the investigation was nothing to worry about. They should have told us.

Boox should be helping you at the very least with your worries and the appeal in general.

Having the charges stood over and recognised is pretty much the same as all of us did.

Interest will accrue, which is why many of us chose to Pay on Account. The interest will accrue until the end of the final appeal which could be 5 years away. If HMRC lose then of course no charges no bill to pay.

Not much more you can do really other than find as much evidence as you possibly can to show HMRC you ran your own business and not Boox.

[jamesbrown]

A software services company is not going to meet the definition of an MSCP, not even in the most liberal/ridiculous interpretation.

However, FA and similar software admits different levels of involvement from an accountant, so it's perfectly possible that you could be using these tools alongside your accountant (as with a bespoke portal) and the accountant found to be an MSCP if they are largely running the business and simply providing a window on it to their client (you) via bookkeeping software. In itself, FA is nothing more than bookkeeping software and it's no more likely the owner (Natwest Group) is classed an MSCP as Microsoft for providing Excel.

[Supergirl007]

Have you guys just received a request for monies to help fight this case with Churchill Knight? I am so screwed. All I did was have them look after my invoicing and bookkeeping. They are not responsible for telling me how much I can earn or take or anything. They have always been my own choices.

[Bonerp]

I've just been asked to contribute £12,000!!! Where TF do we get this from?! I'm going jump off a bridge soon if this continues.
CKA seem to have calculated it against the entire years liability if HMRC win....even though a large chunk of the assumed liability has already been paid and their services as an accountant paid for!
Also isn't this why we are funding David Kirks group? I don't get this.

[SooInsane]

Have you guys just received a request for monies to help fight this case with Churchill Knight? I am so screwed. All I did was have them look after my invoicing and bookkeeping. They are not responsible for telling me how much I can earn or take or anything. They have always been my own choices.

Yep I've just had this through. My heads blowing over this. I'm trying to work out if it's worth investing into it. The amount quoted, I'll also now need to try and source as well which is the most frustrating part.

I still can't see how I've got stuck in this mess. I did the exact same as any other colleague within my workplace who just had different accountants.

[cojak]

I've just been asked to contribute £12,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WTF do we get this from?! I'm going jump off a bridge soon if this continues.

Is this request from Churchill Knight? I cannot see how this amount* is justified.

Decline the invitation, or better still - ignore it. Contact WTT to see if they can help you.

*Or any amount that doesn’t have a rationale behind it.