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Sympathy for the Devil

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    Originally posted by difficulttimes View Post
    Just thought I would let everyone know that I've heard that HMRC will be issuing a new 'offer letter' for settlement that will hopefully remove references to excluded loans and include reference to Loan Charge.

    FWIW, I think unless you have a closed year then CLSO2 is your best option. Why would you want to wait for the loan charge and have an enquiry hanging over your head for HMRC to come back for more? ie. gross amount you received.
    Also there are no discounts if 1 billion people came together for settlement - we aren't Apple so I think we need to move on from there and settlement is final on their terms. If there were better terms then everyone will be doing it. There is NO going back for both parties so you can't have a halfway option. It's take it or leave it BUT hopefully HMRC's new offer letter will put paid to some of the concerns that people have.

    It's a crap situation for everyone but really be careful not to miss out on CLSO2 as the alternative could be far worse and I've heard of people getting up to 7 years TTP which I think is easier if you were to negotiate as only you know your financial situation. There is NO chance you will get 7 years TTP for the loan charge.

    There seems to be a lot of people asking the same question hoping for a different answer.



    Just my thoughts...
    Why is CLS02 the best option unless you have a closed year?

    Comment


      Originally posted by starstruck View Post
      You can't be serious, so now CLSO2 and settlement are ends? You've just stated above you don't consider settlement to be an end.
      Perhaps reading everything in context would help.

      As I have very clearly stated, HMRC consider CLSO 2 to be an end to liability but will not give you certainty that no further charges can or will arise.

      I am of the view that CLSO 2 is not certain enough and leaves too many loose ends.

      A negotiated settlement would be final.

      I'm also not sure what "CLSO 2 and settlement" means?
      Best Forum Adviser & Forum Personality of the Year 2018.

      (No, me neither).

      Comment


        Originally posted by ChimpMaster View Post
        If you've settled < 2016 then those years are closed and not within 2019LC remit.
        Are you sure?

        The previous settlement opportunity went to 2011. I am hoping that when the DR charge appears then all years up to and including 2010/11 will be treated as dealt with and over and that only years after that time will be included in the DR charge, regardless of whether the years are open or closed.

        Where you have not used the previous CLSO, the loans for all years between 1999 and 2019 will be in the DR charge, regardless of whether he year in which the loan was drawn is open or closed.

        Perhaps I've misunderstood the point?
        Best Forum Adviser & Forum Personality of the Year 2018.

        (No, me neither).

        Comment


          Originally posted by vern19 View Post
          Why is CLS02 the best option unless you have a closed year?
          Sorry wrong choice of words, I mean that in terms of settlement v LC possibly closed year may be a better option and the ONLY reason I say that is that you won't have an enquiry still hanging over your head in the future as you haven't got one now.

          But then there is the 10 year anniversary charge for IHT which they could get you on in the future as the loan will still be outstanding but that is another issue.

          I'm no tax expert, I'm stuck in the same situation as 60 000 other people but the LC is just an extension of the APNs so no good will come from paying that IMO.

          The only advice I can give is to 100% get your settlement numbers for CLSO2 and then weigh it all up against the LC and any other tactic you may have. ie. fleeing the country to live in Saudi Arabia

          Good luck

          Comment


            Originally posted by phil@dswtres View Post
            I'm happy to ask that as I can ask for anything to be included, plus your theory about 'why would they have a problem if so confident" is sound and based on common sense but...honestly id be amazed if they ran with it (its HMRC and common sense we are talking about).So unless they shock me and agree I cant offer a service promising such a thing. Id say the chances of them agreeing are extremely minimal to say the least.
            Ill let you know if that changes though. As I say, I'm happy to ask as no harm I guess.
            What you mention is the main query people have to ask themselves I guess...'do I want to the risk of letting it run and potentially having a great result or just accept a more certain one now'. Not for me or indeed anyone to say what the best answer is as purely down to the individual and their own perception of acceptable risk. Sorry that's not helpful but there's no definite correct answer. It wouldn't be helpful if I said what id do either as some of us are risk takers and some risk averse.

            All that being said, keep an eye out for the thread ill be posting tomorrow regarding HMRC behaviours/the press. (Please don't get hopes up here - its nothing life changing and unlikely to change the above answer but it is vaguely linked).

            Regards,
            Phil
            Hi Phil,

            Thanks again, if you hear anything about HMRC backing their confidence with a guarantee of refunds I'd be very interested in the settlement opportunity as that would help convince me that the 2019 legislation and settlement opportunity combo isn't just a ruse to tempt me into paying tax I don't really owe.

            You suggested the situation is that settlement opportunity is a "more certain" outcome than the 2019 legislation and that may well be true. I would expect total certainty from HMRC settlement opportunities to be honest, I think that's only fair.

            For example, I have a colleague who used the older settlement opportunity and HMRC refuse to confirm that he won't be subjected to the 2019 legislation on years that didn't require inclusion in that settlement. They also responded with a link to details of the new settlement opportunity, presumably to tempt him into paying up once more.

            The situation makes me very concerned that if I use the new settlement opportunity, HMRC will just return for further taxes in the future as I've effectively admitted I was a "tax avoider" without any proof the scheme was illegal.

            I look forward to your other news.

            Comment


              Originally posted by ChimpMaster View Post
              If you've settled < 2016 then those years are closed and not within 2019LC remit.
              Some people who settled under CLSO1 have been advised that their closed years will still be caught by the loan charge. It's hotly debated.

              Comment


                Originally posted by webberg View Post
                Are you sure?

                The previous settlement opportunity went to 2011. I am hoping that when the DR charge appears then all years up to and including 2010/11 will be treated as dealt with and over and that only years after that time will be included in the DR charge, regardless of whether the years are open or closed.

                Where you have not used the previous CLSO, the loans for all years between 1999 and 2019 will be in the DR charge, regardless of whether he year in which the loan was drawn is open or closed.

                Perhaps I've misunderstood the point?
                HMRC have created a humungous mess from their lack of action and their inadequacy over the past 20 years. But of course they aren't responsible for any of this and can go back to re-write the rulebook whenever they like. And I'm still in shock that my closed years from > 10 years ago are going to be taxed in 2019. So no - frankly I'm not sure of anything anymore.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by webberg View Post
                  Perhaps reading everything in context would help.

                  As I have very clearly stated, HMRC consider CLSO 2 to be an end to liability but will not give you certainty that no further charges can or will arise.

                  I am of the view that CLSO 2 is not certain enough and leaves too many loose ends.

                  A negotiated settlement would be final.

                  I'm also not sure what "CLSO 2 and settlement" means?
                  Graham, it's utterly exhausting discussing anything with you. You speak in riddles and constantly change your story. It's clear to me you are just here to sell Big Group. Anything other than that you dismiss; fair enough you believe in your resolution strategy - but I am far from convinced. I thought WTT could still arrange settlement for me, but I'll be going elsewhere.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by BrownOwl View Post
                    Hi Phil,

                    Thanks again, if you hear anything about HMRC backing their confidence with a guarantee of refunds I'd be very interested in the settlement opportunity as that would help convince me that the 2019 legislation and settlement opportunity combo isn't just a ruse to tempt me into paying tax I don't really owe.

                    You suggested the situation is that settlement opportunity is a "more certain" outcome than the 2019 legislation and that may well be true. I would expect total certainty from HMRC settlement opportunities to be honest, I think that's only fair.

                    For example, I have a colleague who used the older settlement opportunity and HMRC refuse to confirm that he won't be subjected to the 2019 legislation on years that didn't require inclusion in that settlement. They also responded with a link to details of the new settlement opportunity, presumably to tempt him into paying up once more.

                    The situation makes me very concerned that if I use the new settlement opportunity, HMRC will just return for further taxes in the future as I've effectively admitted I was a "tax avoider" without any proof the scheme was illegal.

                    I look forward to your other news.
                    Hi, i cant guarantee at this stage and would be wrong of me to state otherwise. I am hopeful though and noises coming out of HMRC seems to indicate the certainty we crave will be possible to include in the settlement. Until then though its not certain but ill update as and when I hear. As ive said to people who have called me, if the settlement doesn't include it then I will not be advising to sign the deeds until it suits each individuals aims. For the majority id say this includes wanting a definite and final end to the matter. HMRC recognise this so fingers crossed all agreed soon.
                    It still stands that we can ask for it on a case by cases basis anyway and I would find it strange if HMRC refused as we would effectively be asking to include something they are already saying verbally.
                    Sorry its all as clear as mud but we are working on it and for once I am being mildly optimistic as I think will soon be resolved.

                    Phil

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by difficulttimes View Post
                      Sorry wrong choice of words, I mean that in terms of settlement v LC possibly closed year may be a better option and the ONLY reason I say that is that you won't have an enquiry still hanging over your head in the future as you haven't got one now.

                      But then there is the 10 year anniversary charge for IHT which they could get you on in the future as the loan will still be outstanding but that is another issue.

                      I'm no tax expert, I'm stuck in the same situation as 60 000 other people but the LC is just an extension of the APNs so no good will come from paying that IMO.

                      The only advice I can give is to 100% get your settlement numbers for CLSO2 and then weigh it all up against the LC and any other tactic you may have. ie. fleeing the country to live in Saudi Arabia

                      Good luck
                      I very much agree with the last para (erm...though as a tax advisor I should prob state I'm not suggesting to fleeing to Saudi Arabia). Rather I think getting the figures for all options and then considering is sensible.

                      Comment

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