BIG GROUP

[jbryce]

I have no idea what your arrangements were. But there are effectively two questions:

1. Did you get any earnings from your employment? If so, that is subject to income tax.

2. Is there are a discretionary trust and, if so, did the value of its assets go down? If so (subject to the detailed rules that determine the quantum) IHT will be due.

These two questions are not mutually exclusive. So just because you answer "yes" to the first it does not automatically mean that you must answer "no" to the second.

In relation to the bit you quoted from earlier, I've added some bits in red:



The only comment that the Supreme Court made about IHT in this case is that "the loans would be repayable out of the footballer’s estate on death, thereby reducing its value for Inheritance Tax purposes" (and it mentioned something similar a couple of times). The reason it did not mention IHT in relation to the trust is because the tax case was never about IHT.

I think you're being disingenuous here - the question marks clearly indicate that IHT is a question that remains open outside the Rangers case.

[jbryce]

I'm out of my depth here so I'm using logic.


OK HMRC may choose not to use logic but this is a breach of their own contract.

You're missing the point. This is HMRC, there is no logic.

Read the posts above - even the accountants can't agree on any interpretation, let alone understand each other's posts. And if they can't follow the logic (or lack of) how is Jo Public to follow it?

[webberg]

Hi there,

Am a bit confused. Paid my £200 and the first years subscription up front. Now, in previous posts and messages from webberg, I made the assumption that I could join and get some advice and strategies on my particular solution. I have posted some questions on the forum and have been told that individual advice is around £600 + VAT. Seems I have access to a forum where I cannot get individual advice pertinent to my situation without more fees? What about some more of the decent and general advice given by webberg for free here and other messages. Webberg does work for WTT right?

Of course I understand the opting in bit, but how can I make a decision to opt in without advice in the first place?

Maybe I have just gotten the wrong end of the stick? Wouldn't be the first time and I apologise in advance if I am incorrect in my understanding of what it means to be a WTT member.

cheers

Let's be clear.

Joining Big Group gives you access to the group and its resolution process. The BG forum does have a range of template letters and responses and general advice about what to do with HMRC enquiries etc.

What is does not do is give you individual advice about your personal circumstances. That is just not possible for the price.

WTT Consulting advises BG. It also advises those who want personal help.

Some BG members are advised by WTT, some are advised by others.

If you feel you want more or at not getting what you wanted, then call us. Pretty sure that this would have been explained on joining.

[webberg]

Sorry for going around in circles on this but it is doing my brain in.

Surely points two and three are removed / nullified the moment HMRC charge PAYE because now the money was taxed as income. The only point left is the first one and HMRC (as in my case) already charged me PAYE on the money.

What HMRC is therefore saying (in my case) is they are using point 1 and 4 (because of my "released" income (loan)). I guess HMRC rewrite the rules and they can pick and choose as they like.

This is just me again. You don't need to responds to this because I'm not going to get this no-logic.

Points 2 & 3 are perfectly valid.

Imagine that you were a permie, received a salary (taxed) and decided to set up a trust of your own.

The contribution to the trust is from taxed income.

I have to disagree about "no logic". I think it's perhaps the only answer that a Court could come to.

[HMRC made Atlas Shrug]

Points 2 & 3 are perfectly valid.

Imagine that you were a permie, received a salary (taxed) and decided to set up a trust of your own.

The contribution to the trust is from taxed income.

I have to disagree about "no logic". I think it's perhaps the only answer that a Court could come to.

Correct me if I'm wrong but what you are saying is points 2 & 3 are valid points if I set up a trust of my own ?

Since I did not set up a trust of my own, surely we are back to my argument that point 2 & 3 are not valid the moment I paid PAYE on the income.

[HMRC made Atlas Shrug]

Hi there,

Am a bit confused. Paid my £200 and the first years subscription up front. Now, in previous posts and messages from webberg, I made the assumption that I could join and get some advice and strategies on my particular solution. I have posted some questions on the forum and have been told that individual advice is around £600 + VAT. Seems I have access to a forum where I cannot get individual advice pertinent to my situation without more fees? What about some more of the decent and general advice given by webberg for free here and other messages. Webberg does work for WTT right?

Of course I understand the opting in bit, but how can I make a decision to opt in without advice in the first place?

Maybe I have just gotten the wrong end of the stick? Wouldn't be the first time and I apologise in advance if I am incorrect in my understanding of what it means to be a WTT member.

cheers

I do not know if you as a member ever asked for individual advice and how long it took to receive the advice. As a non-member I'm still waiting on my free initial advice and its coming up to 8 weeks of waiting.

I do not get this. I would have thought since I sent in my documents that show the release of my loan was included in the settlement as well as IHT, people representing other contractors would jump at the chance to have a look and help me. Surely if I am right and someone can help me get HMMafia off my back regarding IHT, they should be able to demand the same treatment (deal) for their clients. We all did the same thing and should be taxed the same ? Just saving the IHT is a saving of many thousands.

So don't think free is as great as it sounds, you get what you paid for.

[webberg]

Correct me if I'm wrong but what you are saying is points 2 & 3 are valid points if I set up a trust of my own ?

Since I did not set up a trust of my own, surely we are back to my argument that point 2 & 3 are not valid the moment I paid PAYE on the income.

It matters not who set the trust up. A trust is not active until money is paid to it. This is called settling money on a trust.

If money is settled on a trust by a third party (an employer) acting as an employer, it has a certain analysis.

If money is settled on a trust by you (so you are settlor and beneficiary) and the "employer" is just a conduit for funds, i.e. the employer is acting under actual or presumed instruction, it has potentially, a different analysis.

It is our view that many schemes out there are of the second type and thus, HMRC's analysis of IHT is incorrect.

[webberg]

I do not know if you as a member ever asked for individual advice and how long it took to receive the advice. As a non-member I'm still waiting on my free initial advice and its coming up to 8 weeks of waiting.

I do not get this. I would have thought since I sent in my documents that show the release of my loan was included in the settlement as well as IHT, people representing other contractors would jump at the chance to have a look and help me. Surely if I am right and someone can help me get HMMafia off my back regarding IHT, they should be able to demand the same treatment (deal) for their clients. We all did the same thing and should be taxed the same ? Just saving the IHT is a saving of many thousands.

So don't think free is as great as it sounds, you get what you paid for.

You say "as a non member". Have you contacted BG or WTT? If so, give me your name (via PM) and I'll check.

[stonehenge]

To be fair, whatever you end up paying BG will be a fraction of the ~10% fees you handed over to the cowboys who sold the scheme.

Having said that, it all adds up and only time will tell if there will be any ROI. Probably best to treat it as a punt.

[HMRC made Atlas Shrug]

You say "as a non member". Have you contacted BG or WTT? If so, give me your name (via PM) and I'll check.

I'm not able to PM, I'm sitting in the cheap seats.

The last e-mail you sent me was on 27/10/2017.
The last e-mail I sent you was on 29/10/2017.

This is the e-mail address I used: g*****.w*****@wttconsulting.co.uk

Maybe I missed something ?

What I'm hoping is for someone (maybe legal ?) to look at the wording in HMRC's document and say if the release of my loan as well as IHT are included or not. If it works for me, surely you guys can do (ask for) the same.