BIG GROUP

[webberg]

Bummer. I just lost a full explanation (background etc.) and my thoughts but the website dropped it as I pressed submit. I'm not typing all of that in again, sorry. Here is the short answer.

I handled it myself and I tried all the technical reasons/laws I heard of including rules from HMRC's own website. HMRC fobbed it all off. I am in a pickle regarding HMRC's IHT claim but my guess is so is everybody else, even those getting professional advice. They just don't know it yet. At least according to me, I have a contract with HMRC saying IHT is included. My problem (pickle) is, HMRC is now ignoring their own contract!!!!

At the time I looked into this I found all the professionals were guessing, I could do that myself without charging myself a lot of money. It seems like things are progressing (forums like this) but I've not seen a eureka moment yet.

Your decision. Let's say it turns out the professionals were able to save you thousands and you did not go with them, will you be OK with it. Lets say it turns out the professionals were not able to save you anything and you paid for their advice, will you be OK with it.

I have to live with my call. I did all of this before I heard of this forum and the groups on it.

A free tip: Double check everything (all the amounts) HMRC send you, they make mistakes in their favour.

I would say that a professional is unlikely to have saved you much is anything. HMRC's approach to settlement is pretty much "take this or leave it" and any attempt to change the analysis or the words is met with "sign it or else".

What a professional would do is read it all carefully and make sure that you understood the implications and consequences.

[SimonJones]

IHT

This whole IHT stuff is just crazy... on one hand HMRC is saying the earnings is income, hence taxable; and on the other hand they it's a loan as well, hence IHT. How can the earnings be both Income and Loan at the same time? Surely, isn't this double taxation?

[BrilloPad]

This whole IHT stuff is just crazy... on one hand HMRC is saying the earnings is income, hence taxable; and on the other hand they it's a loan as well, hence IHT. How can the earnings be both Income and Loan at the same time? Surely, isn't this double taxation?

2008 proved it was legal. retrospectively.

[webberg]

This whole IHT stuff is just crazy... on one hand HMRC is saying the earnings is income, hence taxable; and on the other hand they it's a loan as well, hence IHT. How can the earnings be both Income and Loan at the same time? Surely, isn't this double taxation?

NO.

The Supreme Court said.

Money went from employer to you = taxable
Money went from you to trust = no income tax, IHT?
Money went from trust to you as a loan = no income tax, no IHT
Loan has to be repaid = IHT?

No double tax.

[HMRC made Atlas Shrug]

This whole IHT stuff is just crazy... on one hand HMRC is saying the earnings is income, hence taxable; and on the other hand they it's a loan as well, hence IHT. How can the earnings be both Income and Loan at the same time? Surely, isn't this double taxation?

Amen. I've been letting off steam about this logic (common sense) for a long time but HMRC respond with references to their incomprehensible rules.

Two points of "interest" (in English, HMRC madness).

1) IHT is not as normal people understand IHT. If you look at HMRC's website they say IHT is also blooming tax. So why the F call it IHT, call it a blooming TAX. Sorry for my rant.

2) I was told the trust I belonged to (Horizon) is of a type that is IHT exempt. I tried this on HMRC and they responded (as Webberg mentioned in his response) with something along the line of IHT is due when money goes into the trust but also when it goes out. HMRC said something along the line they are nice to us by exempting the IHT on the money going in, but there is still IHT on the out side.

Something is IHT exempt or it is not. By my calculations (using my brain, something the psychopaths working at HMRC does not do). Saying they may apply IHT on ingoing and outgoing money as well as PAYE on the same money, they are not only saying they may apply double tax but triple tax on the same money. Call it what they like, PAYE, NI or IHT, is all tax.

Like you I think. Once HMRC called our loans "income" and taxed PAYE on the income, HMRC nullified the loans and whole (now fake) loan & trust thing. In my book (using common sense) the loans and trust do not exist any more. But our problem, neither HMRC nor the professionals want to see logic. They use bonkers rules and laws, I guess the professionals have no choice.

I feel like I'm in a madhouse going around in circles with a bunch of nutters.

[BrilloPad]

Amen. I've been letting off steam about this logic (common sense) for a long time but HMRC respond with references to their incomprehensible rules.

Two points of "interest" (in English, HMRC madness).

1) IHT is not as normal people understand IHT. If you look at HMRC's website they say IHT is also blooming tax. So why the F call it IHT, call it a blooming TAX. Sorry for my rant.

2) I was told the trust I belonged to (Horizon) is of a type that is IHT exempt. I tried this on HMRC and they responded (as Webberg mentioned in his response) with something along the line of IHT is due when money goes into the trust but also when it goes out. HMRC said something along the line they are nice to us by exempting the IHT on the money going in, but there is still IHT on the out side.

Something is IHT exempt or it is not. By my calculations (using my brain, something the psychopaths working at HMRC does not do). Saying they may apply IHT on ingoing and outgoing money as well as PAYE on the same money, they are not only saying they may apply double tax but triple tax on the same money. Call it what they like, PAYE, NI or IHT, is all tax.

Like you I think. Once HMRC called our loans "income" and taxed PAYE on the income, HMRC nullified the loans and whole (now fake) loan & trust thing. In my book (using common sense) the loans and trust do not exist any more. But our problem, neither HMRC nor the professionals want to see logic. They use bonkers rules and laws, I guess the professionals have no choice.

I feel like I'm in a madhouse going around in circles with a bunch of nutters.

What sort of professional advice are you getting? Have you been to see your MP?

[HMRC made Atlas Shrug]

"HMRC's approach to settlement is pretty much "take this or leave it" and any attempt to change the analysis or the words is met with "sign it or else"."

I can vouch for that from personal experience.

You are not doing your cause a lot of good saying "a professional is unlikely to have saved you much if anything".

"What a professional would do is read it all carefully and make sure that you understood the implications and consequences".

True, I agree.

As I said before, my problem was (is), the professionals I spoke to admitted they did not know what will happen, what is the best way to go. Those interested, were all grasping around for ideas while their costs (bills) would have been adding up, including interest by HMRC. None of the professionals can even today say yes, we got this one. I'm not blaming the professionals, it is this mad system they have to work with. In my humble opinion, anybody waiting until the professionals can give them clarity, is going to wait a very long time. HMRC is going to outlast them all and the meter is running.

In any case, HMRC never close a door. HMRC always leave a backdoor open to come after you for more. The last thing I needed was a professional (rightly) pointing out all HMRC's traps. I would not have been able to make a decision because whichever way I turned, HMRC was going to my .

[webberg]

"HMRC's approach to settlement is pretty much "take this or leave it" and any attempt to change the analysis or the words is met with "sign it or else"."

I can vouch for that from personal experience.

You are not doing your cause a lot of good saying "a professional is unlikely to have saved you much if anything".

"What a professional would do is read it all carefully and make sure that you understood the implications and consequences".

True, I agree.

As I said before, my problem was (is), the professionals I spoke to admitted they did not know what will happen, what is the best way to go. Those interested, were all grasping around for ideas while their costs (bills) would have been adding up, including interest by HMRC. None of the professionals can even today say yes, we got this one. I'm not blaming the professionals, it is this mad system they have to work with. In my humble opinion, anybody waiting until the professionals can give them clarity, is going to wait a very long time. HMRC is going to outlast them all and the meter is running.

In any case, HMRC never close a door. HMRC always leave a backdoor open to come after you for more. The last thing I needed was a professional (rightly) pointing out all HMRC's traps. I would not have been able to make a decision because whichever way I turned, HMRC was going to my .

I'm not sure that I have a "cause" other than to be honest with those who might become clients.

Many contractors have had years of people misleading them, perhaps even lying to them. When we set out on this journey we decided that was not us. We decided that it was better to face the truth and deal with it.

HMRC's settlement process is deeply flawed and technically inept. I can show you exactly how and why. I'm pretty sure that most of the tax professionals who come on here could do the same.

The problem however is that even where individual HMRC officers admit that their position is wrong in law, they are obliged to hold the line at fear of losing their jobs. They hide behind the alleged reason that in order to be fair to all, they have a one size fits all answer. It's not fair. It's not in accordance with the law, but it's something they defend.

Behind the scenes we have met with senior HMRC people in front of MPs and discussed this. They admit that they have insufficient information on many situations and that their analysis has never had judicial sanction, but insist they have to maintain a united front.

It's too frustrating for words.

So, I accept that some professionals look to their fee income first and spin things out, but please do not tar us all with that brush.

[HMRC made Atlas Shrug]

What sort of professional advice are you getting? Have you been to see your MP?

You may laugh at me for my answer, none. Well not paid for, it is too late for me.

OK please stop laughing and yes I'm an idiot for trusting HMRC.

I think I was ahead of the curve on this whole sorry business but I can't believe I'm the only one.

I made my decisions before I knew of the Big Group and this forum but I'm not sure I would have done things that differently. I've been thinking of going down the MP, contacting the head of HMRC or writing to the appropriate minister route. I however first wanted to see how things progress with other contractors. In my opinion 'we' stand a better chance going as a group like Big Group (I am not connected to them yet) instead of going at it alone. They will listen more to a representative than a lone voice. In any case, a professional will do a much better job than I can. I may get angry and .

In my opinion, 'we' don't stand a chance fighting HMRC on their rules and from my experience, none as individuals. In my opinion, our only chance is to do one or all of the above as a group. I am not a member of Big Group (yet) but my understanding is they are or have looked into this route.

For now I'm waiting to see what happens. At least the interest on my loan stopped since I coughed up. Watch out for that interest, it adds up. If you've not got a CTD yet, I suggest looking into it for your loan. Going on HMRC's website, I'm not clear if a CTD will save interest on the IHT part.

[BrilloPad]

You may laugh at me for my answer, none. Well not paid for, it is too late for me.

OK please stop laughing and yes I'm an idiot for trusting HMRC.

I think I was ahead of the curve on this whole sorry business but I can't believe I'm the only one.

I made my decisions before I knew of the Big Group and this forum but I'm not sure I would have done things that differently. I've been thinking of going down the MP, contacting the head of HMRC or writing to the appropriate minister route. I however first wanted to see how things progress with other contractors. In my opinion 'we' stand a better chance going as a group like Big Group (I am not connected to them yet) instead of going at it alone. They will listen more to a representative than a lone voice. In any case, a professional will do a much better job than I can. I may get angry and .

In my opinion, 'we' don't stand a chance fighting HMRC on their rules and from my experience, none as individuals. In my opinion, our only chance is to do one or all of the above as a group. I am not a member of Big Group (yet) but my understanding is they are or have looked into this route.

For now I'm waiting to see what happens. At least the interest on my loan stopped since I coughed up. Watch out for that interest, it adds up. If you've not got a CTD yet, I suggest looking into it for your loan. Going on HMRC's website, I'm not clear if a CTD will save interest on the IHT part.

There are those on CUK who are laughing at you. Most are not. And those laughing will have a nasty shock coming.

HMRC have cost me my wife, children and my sanity.

However, in your shoes, I would approach BG to see if they can sort out this mess for you. They have alot of experience of this situation. If not, I would see an accountant or solicitor.

I don't believe BG will be able to do any more than settle on HMRC terms. However I said that about NTRT and was proved wrong.