BIG GROUP

[eek]

I think any tax advisor using this forum to drum up business is an 'ambulance chaser', by definition.

I wasn't planning to comment as I'm not effected by any of these schemes however that is utterly unfair and uncalled for....

The simple facts are that there are a lot of people who have been sold schemes as a solution to perceived problems (possibly as a way to get even more money but its fair to say that in most cases fear of IR35 was the chief selling point of those solutions.

A lot of people have been left high and dry by those advisors and that leaves them in a situation where they have no support from anyone. Worse I know some advisors have happily sold their customer list to proper ambulance chasers who are more than happy to spread fear and pain to make a few quid....

Yes webberg does need to make some money out of the work he is doing. But off his own back he has created a means of keeping those costs as low as possible and he isn't cold calling people and scaring them into joining....

To be frank, if you were a member of one of those schemes, no solution is going to be cost and risk free. But from where I stand (granted on the outside looking in, but I know more about these things than probably anyone else around here) Big Group is going to be the cheapest means of getting a possible solution....

I note that you biggest comments seem to have appeared since webberg stated that from July 31st anyone who joins after that date may have to pay a success fee. Given that he's giving people 4 weeks notice of a change in the rules allowing anyone who wants to to join now before those rules apply I really can't see what you are objecting to here.

[davedavis]

To the best of my knowledge, we've never coerced anybody into joining our group, nor asked them for large amounts of money to join or leave, nor told them that we are the only option, nor promised them that we are the complete answer.

In my dealings with this forum, I've always been acutely aware of the history of advisers and others seeking to punt their products and where we had any doubt, we checked first with those who administer the forum.

We are confident that what we have said in this thread and others, both in the guise of this user name and an earlier iteration, has been honest, accurate and motivated by wishing to be clear as to the situation for most and how it might play out.

An ambulance chaser is presumably a person/firm who prey on victims who have no other choice but to pay and pay and pay?

Our joining and monthly fees are modest. There is no minimum contract and no notice required to leave. If we get to a settlement and you don't like it, you are not obliged to take it. If you wish to continue to use you existing agent for tax work, that's fine. If you want to subject us to due diligence, again, that's fine.

We do not claim to be the only nor the "right" answer. We do claim that whatever we do, we will be transparent in what we're doing and why.

My personal opinion is that the above is not ambulance chasing but I accept and welcome a sceptical approach because in the present environment, that is helathy and sensible. I would however ask that you take into consideration the facts and evidence in arriving at an objective position because not all advisers are the same.

I am sceptical, particularly when you sound like Mother Teresa. I agree, you probably don't have the right answer and there is a conflict of interest. The longer this goes on, the more money you make.

Tax Planners/Advisors use a fantastic business model, design tax avoidance schemes and charge clients to use them, knowing full well that HMRC will challenge them. When they do, charge the same clients for your time fending off HMRC

[Bkuenose]

I am a member of BIG Group and have been since around November last year. Webberg and his company act with true integrity and are always honest when provinding expectations in any proposal they put forward. They are certainly not Ambulance chasers and provide an excellent service for a very reasonable fee.

Being with this group has given me hope and also comfort along with advice from members in the same situaton.

I can give all this from actual experience with Big Group and Webberg - Davedavis you have none of this and therefore your commenting on something you really know little about

[eek]

I am sceptical, particularly when you sound like Mother Teresa. I agree, you probably don't have the right answer and there is a conflict of interest. The longer this goes on, the more money you make.

Tax Planners/Advisors use a fantastic business model, design tax avoidance schemes and charge clients to use them, knowing full well that HMRC will challenge them. When they do, charge the same clients for your time fending off HMRC

Are you actually a member of one of these schemes or just someone on the sidelines looking in and complaining about how awful it is that people need to pay fees?

Tax planning isn't for little people. If you can't afford £200,000 for a first tribunal and have enough spare cash to pay the bill and the fines you shouldn't use tax planning schemes. but the fact is that I lot of people have been tricked into joining schemes that were eminently not suitable for them to save a few quid in tax...

You may not like the fact that an advisor is charging a fee while trying to help them out but unless you can show me a solution that is cheaper for most people this is the only game in town....

So can you be honest... Are you actually affected by a scheme and if you are can you recommend another option other than not doing anything and being subjected to HMRC's payment recovery methods without support....

[webberg]

I am sceptical, particularly when you sound like Mother Teresa. I agree, you probably don't have the right answer and there is a conflict of interest. The longer this goes on, the more money you make.

Tax Planners/Advisors use a fantastic business model, design tax avoidance schemes and charge clients to use them, knowing full well that HMRC will challenge them. When they do, charge the same clients for your time fending off HMRC

As I said being sceptical is healthy.

I was a tax planner. I did that job for a multinational bank and then for a firm who sold products to Independent Financial Advisers (IFA) which in turn they sold to high net worth individuals. I do not believe that those advising the bank, its clients, the IFA's or their clients were unaware of the risks. If any investor went into those products thinking that they would NOT have an enquiry, they were either hopelessly niave or ill advised. In my experience most of that group went into such products because they knew exactly what the situation was.

Contractors did not.

Contractors were then (and remain now) unaware of the complexity of the tax environment that surrounds them. As such they were easy pickings for those with a little more knowledge and with a slick and practised sales pitch. It's easy to say that "they should have known" or "they should have been told", but pretty much all of those I speak with chose to believe the expert in the room, who was very often NOT a tax adviser.

If they had been high net worth individuals who were clients of an IFA, then there is a route to recompense for poor advice. As it is, the promoters of contractor schemes were not (and are not) regulated and if you rely upon them and they get it wrong (knowingly or otherwise) there is no route to compensation.

So, much as I would like to validate your model, I'm afraid the facts don't bear it out.

[DonkeyRhubarb]

You may not like the fact that an advisor is charging a fee while trying to help them out but unless you can show me a solution that is cheaper for most people this is the only game in town....

Even if users set up their own support group, manned by unpaid volunteers like we did, you're still going to have to pay professional advisors at some point.

Our members have forked out a lot more than members of BG.

With the benefit of hindsight, I would have to say that the BG model, run by pros, is better than the way we did it. At least they've got people running the show who know their stuff, rather than amateurs.

[needmorstuff]

joined.

[Anders7777]

I am in..

Mod edit: Joining instructions.

This started elsewhere but should be on its own.

I have two takers so far.

To clarify this BIG GROUP is ONE GROUP across ALL schemes.

It does not impact action individuals may wish to take on their own or via other groups.

Let's indulge in some speculation.

A group is formed.

It decides that there are perhaps 4 scheme "types" that are potentially caught by HMRC's present interpretations.

It knows that HMRC is not prepared to be sensible in settlement and therefore the only strategy is to defend a number of cases at Tribunal in the hope that a less than 100% victory for HMRC will force them to the table.

The group also defends to extent possible, APN claims and other spurious attempts from the agency to extract funds. This is on the basis that civil disobedience and tying up HMRC resource is an effective strategy.

That may require 5 years.

We'll allow 4 full time staff (admin/website/etc) and a panel of experts. Accommodation, telephone etc. Say £200,000 a year tops. So £1m over 5 years.

"Experts" budget perhaps £1.5m over that period. That's pretty much one average (in terms of charge out rate) tax specialist full time for 5 years.

So £2.5m over 5 years. Let's say £3m.

If the cost per individual was £10 a month for 60 months, how many are needed?

£3m/60/£10 = 5,000 people.

How many contractors impacted?

I don't know. If 100,000, then we're looking at 5% membership.

To get to that value requires some form of advertising campaign and that in turn requires some seed funding.

There are "litigation funders" out there. They work by advancing legal costs in return for a cut of a "win".

They might be interested. More likely something like this forum could run a pre funding group and effectively put up initial funds.

I reckon perhaps £25,000 to run the ads and initial letter/email/website stuff.

How many people here?

500? That's £50 each.

So the deal is:

Put up £50. Put up some of your undoubted IT expertise. Hire a temporary project director (on a contract). Ask for volunteers for a steering group (I'd be interested). Elect/appoint a steering committee.

Spend the initial money over 6 months and see what the response is and re-evaluate.

If this is a "go", membership is £10 a month for 60 months (perhaps less/more). Alternatively pay £500 day 1 and then nothing until month 61.

Make sure to get anybody who is willing from NTRT. Make sure to include some PR.

Anybody?

I am in - just wonder how this can be set up - I was speaking to a former HRMC employee this week who suggested this very action - how do I sign up - we need to get this band rolling ASAP to bring unscrupulous Umbrella companies who acted illegally - when we thought everything was legal being paid via loans etc - they should be made accountable for their actions...lets all follow the white rabbit..

[Anders7777]

I am in..

Hi Just joined this forum and not really sure how it works - just like Umbrella companies who pay with loans etc - thought that this was legal but have just received HMRC letter requesting 3 years of self assessment forms..which my accountant is dealing with - I am keen to join the group so can you please tell me how..

[anwesha]

Inquiry by hmrc on loan EBT (section 9a) - IQ contracts

Hello,

I have been send a tax return inquiry by HMRC (Section 9a). I was working with IQ contracts as my umbrella company from Jun 2014 to Mar 2015 (9 months). IQ contracts used the loan scheme to pay me. And HMRC now wants to inquire because they state that, i owe tax on loans received.
The total amount of loan incurred during the time was £27,500.
I have gone through many posts in this forum regarding same issue with no solution.
I would like to know -
1) How much tax i would have to pay on the £27,500 amount of loan? also how much penalty HMRC could issue on me?
2) If i could get a back dated letter from IQ stating that - I have left their company in march and the loan has been waived off. Then the loan becomes taxable for 2015-2016 year. So i still have time to pay tax on this amount and avoid any penalty by HMRC. Could this be a possible solution? Also if i have to pay tax then how much tax would i owe on £27,500 as a taxable loan?

Please advise.